4 ms·

You are right. It might be sexism. So you have a choice. You can act on that belief and sit around pining for a world where nobody judges another based on anyth

You are right. It might be sexism. So you have a choice. You can act on that belief and sit around pining for a world where nobody judges another based on anything external, or you can get to work winning respect in the culture that exists. I think the second choice will be better for your career, and meeting a competent, confident female is a lot more likely to make the neanderthals rethink their sexism. Whining just reinforces the stereotype. I'm 55. I guarantee I've suffered age discrimination when looking for work, and it obviously sucks. But once I'm on the job, it doesn't take long for people to see what I can do and forget the grey hair and wrinkles.

wpietri 13y ago
False dilemma. One can pursue respect at the same time one works for a fairer system.
- WayneDB 13y ago
  He didn't say you can't work for a fairer system. He said that complaining won't work. He also said what would work. More power to you if you feel that you can change society... But if you do nothing more than complain about it...fuck you! (and I say that with a smile :)
  - wpietri 13y ago
    He phrased it as an either-or choice. That's a false dilemma.
    - WayneDB 13y ago
      He said that pining/whining is not even really a choice because it won't work and he's right in my opinion. It would be a false dilemma if he said that "you cannot work towards a better system and have a good career". He did not say that though. Instead he gave a specific example of something that wouldn't change the system and also wouldn't be good for anyone's career. You actually agree with him because then he says that in order to have a good career AND change the system, just be a confident, competent female engineer (and remember to not complain and point fingers even if you're right).
      - wpietri 13y ago
        He says "You have a choice." And lists two possibilities, one of which is dumb, and the other of which he wants you to pick. There are more than two possibilities, but he ignores those. That is a false dilemma. And no, he and I don't agree. I think it is fine to be a confident, competent engineer. But I think one should then use that power to create a fairer world. The notion that to get respect you can't point out problems with the existing system is a sign that the system is sick.
        WayneDB 13y ago
        "The notion that to get respect you can't point out problems with the existing system is a sign that the system is sick." "pointing out problems" is vastly different from what this woman did. Saying something like "Put down the crack pipes" is not "pointing out problems". Do you agree? Saying things like "Put down the crack pipes" will not work. Do you agree with that too? If you agree with both of those things, I think we're all on the same page here.
        wpietri 13y ago
        If you agree that he constructed a false dilemma, then we're on the same page.
        WayneDB 13y ago
        Nesting maximum reached. No, I do not agree that he constructed a false dilemma. Why not just answer my questions though?
        wpietri 13y ago
        Because I'm not really interested in doing Hacker News Defends Patriarchy Vol MCCXVI right now, especially with some random anonymous argumentative dude. "Someone is wrong on the internet" is a game I find less and less fun as I get older, in that it's generally a negative-sum game.
        13y ago
dllthomas 13y ago
Or you can note it, hope that people try and do better, and simultaneously work on doing interesting things (which, incidentally, Rachel seems to be doing).
- WayneDB 13y ago
  Rachel sounds like a smart-ass know-it-all whiner. Saying "Put down the crack pipes" in a professional environment? Yeah this person sounds very stable :) The problem with "noting it" is that people never just "note it". They complain and then everyone thinks they're a complaining complainer. Instead, if you just do a good job without complaining, people will give the deserved respect.
  - acdha 13y ago
    I find it extremely unlikely you'd make the same judgement about a male engineer who behaved the same way – I've seen so many guys with similar resumes who routinely act like that and it almost universally gets excused with something like “well, he really cares about doing it right” or “engineers are just like that”
    - WayneDB 13y ago
      I would think "that was the wrong thing to say", no matter who said it, including myself. Naturally, I am and have been an asshole before so I know about these things, but I learned that tact and working well with a team is more important than being right. There is stability in that knowledge. Creating drama and division definitely doesn't work for me. Too stressful. It may be generally more difficult for a woman to fit into an all-male group. I think women sometimes conflate normal team-work challenges with gender problems too though. It's easy to be blind to your own shortcomings and blame others. I think the only thing you can truly change is yourself and your own reactions to things. I find it easier than trying to change others which can be risky. In any case, the sales and business people regardless of gender, never listen to the technical people...so at the very least we all have something in common :)

wpietri 13y ago

False dilemma. One can pursue respect at the same time one works for a fairer system.

WayneDB 13y ago
He didn't say you can't work for a fairer system. He said that complaining won't work. He also said what would work. More power to you if you feel that you can change society... But if you do nothing more than complain about it...fuck you! (and I say that with a smile :)
- wpietri 13y ago
  He phrased it as an either-or choice. That's a false dilemma.
  - WayneDB 13y ago
    He said that pining/whining is not even really a choice because it won't work and he's right in my opinion. It would be a false dilemma if he said that "you cannot work towards a better system and have a good career". He did not say that though. Instead he gave a specific example of something that wouldn't change the system and also wouldn't be good for anyone's career. You actually agree with him because then he says that in order to have a good career AND change the system, just be a confident, competent female engineer (and remember to not complain and point fingers even if you're right).
    - wpietri 13y ago
      He says "You have a choice." And lists two possibilities, one of which is dumb, and the other of which he wants you to pick. There are more than two possibilities, but he ignores those. That is a false dilemma. And no, he and I don't agree. I think it is fine to be a confident, competent engineer. But I think one should then use that power to create a fairer world. The notion that to get respect you can't point out problems with the existing system is a sign that the system is sick.
      - WayneDB 13y ago
        "The notion that to get respect you can't point out problems with the existing system is a sign that the system is sick." "pointing out problems" is vastly different from what this woman did. Saying something like "Put down the crack pipes" is not "pointing out problems". Do you agree? Saying things like "Put down the crack pipes" will not work. Do you agree with that too? If you agree with both of those things, I think we're all on the same page here.
        wpietri 13y ago
        If you agree that he constructed a false dilemma, then we're on the same page.
        WayneDB 13y ago
        Nesting maximum reached. No, I do not agree that he constructed a false dilemma. Why not just answer my questions though?
        wpietri 13y ago
        Because I'm not really interested in doing Hacker News Defends Patriarchy Vol MCCXVI right now, especially with some random anonymous argumentative dude. "Someone is wrong on the internet" is a game I find less and less fun as I get older, in that it's generally a negative-sum game.
        13y ago

dllthomas 13y ago

Or you can note it, hope that people try and do better, and simultaneously work on doing interesting things (which, incidentally, Rachel seems to be doing).

WayneDB 13y ago
Rachel sounds like a smart-ass know-it-all whiner. Saying "Put down the crack pipes" in a professional environment? Yeah this person sounds very stable :) The problem with "noting it" is that people never just "note it". They complain and then everyone thinks they're a complaining complainer. Instead, if you just do a good job without complaining, people will give the deserved respect.
- acdha 13y ago
  I find it extremely unlikely you'd make the same judgement about a male engineer who behaved the same way – I've seen so many guys with similar resumes who routinely act like that and it almost universally gets excused with something like “well, he really cares about doing it right” or “engineers are just like that”
  - WayneDB 13y ago
    I would think "that was the wrong thing to say", no matter who said it, including myself. Naturally, I am and have been an asshole before so I know about these things, but I learned that tact and working well with a team is more important than being right. There is stability in that knowledge. Creating drama and division definitely doesn't work for me. Too stressful. It may be generally more difficult for a woman to fit into an all-male group. I think women sometimes conflate normal team-work challenges with gender problems too though. It's easy to be blind to your own shortcomings and blame others. I think the only thing you can truly change is yourself and your own reactions to things. I find it easier than trying to change others which can be risky. In any case, the sales and business people regardless of gender, never listen to the technical people...so at the very least we all have something in common :)