6 ms·

Electric Velomobiles: fast, comfortable, and more efficient than cars

59 points by maurits 14y ago

twelvechairs 14y ago
low tech magazine is one of the best reads on the internet. every post is something really in depth (huge amounts of research) and interesting. good to see this on hn
PeterisP 14y ago
I would feel scared in it on the streets due to low height - rinding a bicycle is fun, efficient but a tad risky; but riding a recumbent or this one feels like a deathwish since a SUV or truck wouldn't notice a 90cm high vehicle right in front of them, it would be obscured behind car front hood.
- jepper 14y ago
  I see quite a lot of these vehicles in fly by on the dutch roads, they use the road and not the bicycle lane. They are becoming quite popular. Luckely we don't have that many "tractors" as we call the big SUV's. Drivers already have to mind the bicyclists so the velocycles are just another road user. When i'm on my racing bike i can barely keep up with the non electric velocycles, often driven by 40 year old or so professionals commuting. They are incredibly fast for little energy expended.
yread 14y ago
Unfortunately they cost close to a car ~5000 euros. Here is a couple of links related to bicycles like that http://www.dutchbikes.nl/pagina/links.htm http://www.dutchbikes.nl/pagina/links.htm I've met them on the street a couple of times and while they are really fast, I would be worried about the safety - you're really low - you don't see much from there and what's worse you're almost invisible behind a line of parked cars. Some of them have a pole with a little flag for this reason.
- goldfeld 14y ago
  All your caveats relate to velomobiles not being popular, which is indeed a network effect problem and the biggest issue. I'm sure they would cheapen up fast with mass production and competition driving down prices, and when you don't have to worry about sharing the road with lumbering machines weighting a ton, safety isn't a problem. So yeah, I guess America is out for a good while, let's hope Europe gets this trendy fast. They sure look retro enough for their hipsters.
  - salmonellaeater 14y ago
    > when you don't have to worry about sharing the road with lumbering machines weighting a ton, safety isn't a problem. The best model I can think of for how these might be used is the use of scooters in Asia. In Taiwan, for example, there are bicycle/scooter lanes on major arterials and special signage and traffic rules for scooters. Major intersections have 2-stage turn boxes exclusively for use by scooters and bikes, and there are scooter/bike boxes at the front of most traffic lights. A scooter is the fastest way to get around when there's traffic. The downside is that scooters are still very dangerous, since they still sometimes have to interact with large vehicles. A vehicle even shorter would be even worse. The article focuses a lot on the energy efficiency of these velomobiles, but I would argue that the time people waste in traffic is a much more pressing problem. Reforming our infrastructure to support smaller vehicles and to give preference to public transit is the solution, and it has the additional advantage of making all kinds of more efficient transportation possible.
    - maurits 14y ago
      In short, build bike lanes like the dutch. [1] Big, physically separated, omnipresent bike lines. Ensure that bikes are first class citizens on intersections. Compare the 2-stage turn with the dutch design [2] [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA
- tga 14y ago
  I keep coming across velomobiles and they are slick and all, but I would find it hard to justify the price when, as a casual user, all you get over a good €1000 bike is some protection from the elements, while also losing a lot of mobility and parking convenience. I would rather like to see (recumbent) bikes with a cheap nylon-like soft cover against the wind and rain, that would probably shave a lot of the cost going into the body.
Egregore 14y ago
Put photo-voltaic cells on top and we have a dream vehicle.
- k__ 14y ago
  What, on a velomobile, would profit from this?
  - Egregore 14y ago
    These are electric velomobiles, so you can charge the batteries from solar energy. You can go in the morning to work, put them in a sunny parking lot and in the evening you have it fully charged.
    - k__ 14y ago
      are those cells really that strong? :o
- D9u 14y ago
  Add some deep cycle batteries and you have a nightmare.
- ph0rque 14y ago
  Something like this? http://www.organictransit.com/models.html http://www.organictransit.com/models.html
jchrisa 14y ago
My e-assist cargo bike is more practical but tops out at 20mph. Picture: https://twitter.com/jchris/status/312728928919896064 https://twitter.com/jchris/status/312728928919896064 It was pricey for a bike but cheaper than the car I replaced with it.
jepper 14y ago
Another bicycle innovation, the sailing bike: http://www.whike.com/en/ http://www.whike.com/en/
- pqs 14y ago
  That looks very fun, but not very practical, at least where I live. I guess that most users would mostly use it as a normal recumbent, except during the weekends and holidays, when it is easier to go to a large and flat area to sail. edit: spelling, and other small edits.
Shivetya 14y ago
Efficient simply because of how much you have to be willing to do without. The most obvious is climate control. Sure you might not get wet but damn I would not want to be that close to the road in the dead of summer and I cannot imagine the fun on cold days either. Top it off with no real crash protection; just versus normal objects; most likely very little standards in manufacturing, and then there is visibility; both for the user and others. Storage, well as long as it fits on a bicycle it should fit here, maybe. So yeah, its more efficient than an automobile but it does not compete with automobiles. Why compare not compare it to something in everyday use, like bicycles? Price most likely. So they went with an absurd comparison.
- bryanlarsen 14y ago
  A scooter or motorcycle is the best comparison. Similar levels of safety & cost & climate protection & fun, IMO.
awjr 14y ago
So from what I gather and the various photos in the article, you are put into a 'low slung' vehicle weighing only 35kg and drive along with other road users in their 1-2000kg vehicles. Sounds fun. I give you two weeks on a highway. My daily commute (3km by bicycle) includes 100m of main road (and optionally an amazing two tunnels (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltsADGmrjVQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltsADGmrjVQ). The rest is a shared use path. I now take the lane on this section because so many cars/vans have tried to pass me dangerously. I was seriously thinking of buying a head cam. If you really want to make a change and get people out of cars you need to make the infrastructure you provide safe enough for a 10 year old to cycle it. This means not putting different types of transport in conflict. Have segregated car/cycle/pedestrian lanes. Prioritise cycling over all other forms of transport. Recognise it as a transport 'service' and make it core to government transport policy. This stuff is beginning to happen in the UK. (See London.) Studies are showing the massive benefits to a city (financially) putting in segregated cycling lanes and the long term benefits these bring to companies (cyclists don't have as many days sick). There are also the obvious health benefits. The problem with America is that it loves the car (as does the UK) and is only just beginning to wake up to the fact that converting your city into a massive parking lot just doesn't work and is socially/financially a bad thing. So make it safe enough for a 10 year old to use, design out conflict (seperate out cars/cycles/pedestrians) and put cycling as a priority above everything else. Do not give me a 35kg vehicle where I am forced to queue with all the rest of the cars.
- bryanlarsen 14y ago
  I mostly agree with you about segregated infrastructure. But something going over 50KM/h belongs on the highway with cars and not in the bicycle lane. Sure, it's dangerous, but how much worse is a velomobile with a flag than a motorcycle or scooter? Lots of people drive those. (And lots of people die on them too...)
  - awjr 14y ago
    I think the problem is going to be visibility. You're going to be really low to the ground and somebody looking over their shoulder/looking in the mirror might miss seeing you. At which point you are sideswiped and dead.
bryanlarsen 14y ago
The OP spends a lot of time on the licensing issue. They complain that they cannot be licensed as an electrically-assisted bicycle and in some places cannot even be licensed as a moped. Not licensing as a bicycle means that it must use the road and cannot use bicycle lanes and also means that a driver's license is required to use it. Which seems totally reasonable. These things move at 50km/h+. They would be a menace on the bicycle paths and belong on the road. I also have no qualms limiting them to people old enough to get a driver's license. Electric velomobiles have a speed and safety profile similar to a scooter -- they should be licensed as one, and be required to follow the same laws as one.
amalag 14y ago
How are velomobiles different from a covered moped?
- bergie 14y ago
  Cleaner and cheaper power source. Moped cars (which I assume you meant) are quite popular in Europe for rural 16-18 old kids, as they can't drive regular cars yet: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/20451602 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/20451602
  - amalag 14y ago
    I meant a two wheeled motorized bicycle. Some have been around since WWII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9loSoleX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9loSoleX The laws vary state to state in US. No car likes being stuck behind a low powered slow moped though.
jdevonport 14y ago
Reminds me of the Sinclair C5, Sir Clive Sinclair maintained it was the most successful electric vehicle ever until recently when it was overtaken by the Nissan Leaf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5
JOnAgain 14y ago
I can totally see those catching on. Personally, my choice of car has nothing to do with how people perceive me. This is especially true of women who always say tell me they don't care what kind of car I drive, and I really believe that's their honest opinion. Oh no, I'm late for work -- no worries, rather than walk today I'll just hop on my segway.
FilterJoe 14y ago
I'm a bike commuter, and in the past 3 years electric bike commuter. I had leg injuries and the electric bike I purchased enabled me to continue commuting by bike with light peddling. For the past 3 years my commute is 4 miles each way, with 1 mile of climbing on the way home. I did not find the arguments laid out for velomobiles all that compelling. All but 2 advantages of a velomobile can be had with a US $1000 electric bike, such as: * pedal assist for acceleration and hill climbing * not arriving sweaty * very low fuel/electricity cost The velomobile could potentially give me: * rain protection * faster speeds But it would also lose me: * portability (can carry up stairs, take in commuter rail train, etc.) * storage space (barely bigger than a regular bike so home: garage, work: office). * multiuse paths Even at the SAME cost these disadvantages would outweigh the advantages for my use case - it currently only takes me about 3 minutes extra to get to work and about 6 minutes extra to get home over a car. The roads to work are all 25 MPH with lots of stop signs and traffic lights so being able to slide by cards on the right is an advantage of a regular-sized bike. And it doesn't rain that much where I live - I commute via bus 5-10 times/year due to rain. I really don't like taking a bus so that would be a time I'd love to have a velomobile - but not at a cost of thousands of dollars so I can skip taking a round trip bus ride 5-10 days a year! On the other hand, I can certainly imagine a use case for a velomobile: If you live in a flat area with lots of rain and snow and a commute that uses roads that go faster than 25 MPH - perhaps the Midwest of the U.S. edit: formatting

59 points by maurits 14y ago

low tech magazine is one of the best reads on the internet. every post is something really in depth (huge amounts of research) and interesting. good to see this on hn

PeterisP 14y ago

I would feel scared in it on the streets due to low height - rinding a bicycle is fun, efficient but a tad risky; but riding a recumbent or this one feels like a deathwish since a SUV or truck wouldn't notice a 90cm high vehicle right in front of them, it would be obscured behind car front hood.

jepper 14y ago
I see quite a lot of these vehicles in fly by on the dutch roads, they use the road and not the bicycle lane. They are becoming quite popular. Luckely we don't have that many "tractors" as we call the big SUV's. Drivers already have to mind the bicyclists so the velocycles are just another road user. When i'm on my racing bike i can barely keep up with the non electric velocycles, often driven by 40 year old or so professionals commuting. They are incredibly fast for little energy expended.

yread 14y ago

Unfortunately they cost close to a car ~5000 euros. Here is a couple of links related to bicycles like that http://www.dutchbikes.nl/pagina/links.htm http://www.dutchbikes.nl/pagina/links.htm I've met them on the street a couple of times and while they are really fast, I would be worried about the safety - you're really low - you don't see much from there and what's worse you're almost invisible behind a line of parked cars. Some of them have a pole with a little flag for this reason.

goldfeld 14y ago
All your caveats relate to velomobiles not being popular, which is indeed a network effect problem and the biggest issue. I'm sure they would cheapen up fast with mass production and competition driving down prices, and when you don't have to worry about sharing the road with lumbering machines weighting a ton, safety isn't a problem. So yeah, I guess America is out for a good while, let's hope Europe gets this trendy fast. They sure look retro enough for their hipsters.
- salmonellaeater 14y ago
  > when you don't have to worry about sharing the road with lumbering machines weighting a ton, safety isn't a problem. The best model I can think of for how these might be used is the use of scooters in Asia. In Taiwan, for example, there are bicycle/scooter lanes on major arterials and special signage and traffic rules for scooters. Major intersections have 2-stage turn boxes exclusively for use by scooters and bikes, and there are scooter/bike boxes at the front of most traffic lights. A scooter is the fastest way to get around when there's traffic. The downside is that scooters are still very dangerous, since they still sometimes have to interact with large vehicles. A vehicle even shorter would be even worse. The article focuses a lot on the energy efficiency of these velomobiles, but I would argue that the time people waste in traffic is a much more pressing problem. Reforming our infrastructure to support smaller vehicles and to give preference to public transit is the solution, and it has the additional advantage of making all kinds of more efficient transportation possible.
  - maurits 14y ago
    In short, build bike lanes like the dutch. [1] Big, physically separated, omnipresent bike lines. Ensure that bikes are first class citizens on intersections. Compare the 2-stage turn with the dutch design [2] [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlApbxLz6pA
tga 14y ago
I keep coming across velomobiles and they are slick and all, but I would find it hard to justify the price when, as a casual user, all you get over a good €1000 bike is some protection from the elements, while also losing a lot of mobility and parking convenience. I would rather like to see (recumbent) bikes with a cheap nylon-like soft cover against the wind and rain, that would probably shave a lot of the cost going into the body.

Egregore 14y ago

Put photo-voltaic cells on top and we have a dream vehicle.

k__ 14y ago
What, on a velomobile, would profit from this?
- Egregore 14y ago
  These are electric velomobiles, so you can charge the batteries from solar energy. You can go in the morning to work, put them in a sunny parking lot and in the evening you have it fully charged.
  - k__ 14y ago
    are those cells really that strong? :o
D9u 14y ago
Add some deep cycle batteries and you have a nightmare.
ph0rque 14y ago
Something like this? http://www.organictransit.com/models.html http://www.organictransit.com/models.html

jchrisa 14y ago

My e-assist cargo bike is more practical but tops out at 20mph. Picture: https://twitter.com/jchris/status/312728928919896064 https://twitter.com/jchris/status/312728928919896064 It was pricey for a bike but cheaper than the car I replaced with it.

jepper 14y ago

Another bicycle innovation, the sailing bike: http://www.whike.com/en/ http://www.whike.com/en/

pqs 14y ago
That looks very fun, but not very practical, at least where I live. I guess that most users would mostly use it as a normal recumbent, except during the weekends and holidays, when it is easier to go to a large and flat area to sail. edit: spelling, and other small edits.

Shivetya 14y ago

Efficient simply because of how much you have to be willing to do without. The most obvious is climate control. Sure you might not get wet but damn I would not want to be that close to the road in the dead of summer and I cannot imagine the fun on cold days either. Top it off with no real crash protection; just versus normal objects; most likely very little standards in manufacturing, and then there is visibility; both for the user and others. Storage, well as long as it fits on a bicycle it should fit here, maybe. So yeah, its more efficient than an automobile but it does not compete with automobiles. Why compare not compare it to something in everyday use, like bicycles? Price most likely. So they went with an absurd comparison.

bryanlarsen 14y ago
A scooter or motorcycle is the best comparison. Similar levels of safety & cost & climate protection & fun, IMO.

awjr 14y ago

So from what I gather and the various photos in the article, you are put into a 'low slung' vehicle weighing only 35kg and drive along with other road users in their 1-2000kg vehicles. Sounds fun. I give you two weeks on a highway. My daily commute (3km by bicycle) includes 100m of main road (and optionally an amazing two tunnels (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltsADGmrjVQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltsADGmrjVQ). The rest is a shared use path. I now take the lane on this section because so many cars/vans have tried to pass me dangerously. I was seriously thinking of buying a head cam. If you really want to make a change and get people out of cars you need to make the infrastructure you provide safe enough for a 10 year old to cycle it. This means not putting different types of transport in conflict. Have segregated car/cycle/pedestrian lanes. Prioritise cycling over all other forms of transport. Recognise it as a transport 'service' and make it core to government transport policy. This stuff is beginning to happen in the UK. (See London.) Studies are showing the massive benefits to a city (financially) putting in segregated cycling lanes and the long term benefits these bring to companies (cyclists don't have as many days sick). There are also the obvious health benefits. The problem with America is that it loves the car (as does the UK) and is only just beginning to wake up to the fact that converting your city into a massive parking lot just doesn't work and is socially/financially a bad thing. So make it safe enough for a 10 year old to use, design out conflict (seperate out cars/cycles/pedestrians) and put cycling as a priority above everything else. Do not give me a 35kg vehicle where I am forced to queue with all the rest of the cars.

bryanlarsen 14y ago
I mostly agree with you about segregated infrastructure. But something going over 50KM/h belongs on the highway with cars and not in the bicycle lane. Sure, it's dangerous, but how much worse is a velomobile with a flag than a motorcycle or scooter? Lots of people drive those. (And lots of people die on them too...)
- awjr 14y ago
  I think the problem is going to be visibility. You're going to be really low to the ground and somebody looking over their shoulder/looking in the mirror might miss seeing you. At which point you are sideswiped and dead.

bryanlarsen 14y ago

The OP spends a lot of time on the licensing issue. They complain that they cannot be licensed as an electrically-assisted bicycle and in some places cannot even be licensed as a moped. Not licensing as a bicycle means that it must use the road and cannot use bicycle lanes and also means that a driver's license is required to use it. Which seems totally reasonable. These things move at 50km/h+. They would be a menace on the bicycle paths and belong on the road. I also have no qualms limiting them to people old enough to get a driver's license. Electric velomobiles have a speed and safety profile similar to a scooter -- they should be licensed as one, and be required to follow the same laws as one.

amalag 14y ago

How are velomobiles different from a covered moped?

bergie 14y ago
Cleaner and cheaper power source. Moped cars (which I assume you meant) are quite popular in Europe for rural 16-18 old kids, as they can't drive regular cars yet: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/20451602 http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/20451602
- amalag 14y ago
  I meant a two wheeled motorized bicycle. Some have been around since WWII http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9loSoleX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9loSoleX The laws vary state to state in US. No car likes being stuck behind a low powered slow moped though.

jdevonport 14y ago

Reminds me of the Sinclair C5, Sir Clive Sinclair maintained it was the most successful electric vehicle ever until recently when it was overtaken by the Nissan Leaf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5

JOnAgain 14y ago

I can totally see those catching on. Personally, my choice of car has nothing to do with how people perceive me. This is especially true of women who always say tell me they don't care what kind of car I drive, and I really believe that's their honest opinion. Oh no, I'm late for work -- no worries, rather than walk today I'll just hop on my segway.

FilterJoe 14y ago

I'm a bike commuter, and in the past 3 years electric bike commuter. I had leg injuries and the electric bike I purchased enabled me to continue commuting by bike with light peddling. For the past 3 years my commute is 4 miles each way, with 1 mile of climbing on the way home. I did not find the arguments laid out for velomobiles all that compelling. All but 2 advantages of a velomobile can be had with a US $1000 electric bike, such as: * pedal assist for acceleration and hill climbing * not arriving sweaty * very low fuel/electricity cost The velomobile could potentially give me: * rain protection * faster speeds But it would also lose me: * portability (can carry up stairs, take in commuter rail train, etc.) * storage space (barely bigger than a regular bike so home: garage, work: office). * multiuse paths Even at the SAME cost these disadvantages would outweigh the advantages for my use case - it currently only takes me about 3 minutes extra to get to work and about 6 minutes extra to get home over a car. The roads to work are all 25 MPH with lots of stop signs and traffic lights so being able to slide by cards on the right is an advantage of a regular-sized bike. And it doesn't rain that much where I live - I commute via bus 5-10 times/year due to rain. I really don't like taking a bus so that would be a time I'd love to have a velomobile - but not at a cost of thousands of dollars so I can skip taking a round trip bus ride 5-10 days a year! On the other hand, I can certainly imagine a use case for a velomobile: If you live in a flat area with lots of rain and snow and a commute that uses roads that go faster than 25 MPH - perhaps the Midwest of the U.S. edit: formatting