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Not sure I understand the point of this article. Is it that trying to improve reform regarding immigration with work visas in tech is too limited? It rambles

Not sure I understand the point of this article. Is it that trying to improve reform regarding immigration with work visas in tech is too limited? It rambles a bit at the beginning and then alludes to hard labor jobs, but doesn't really have any clear organization or discernable purpose.

jonnathanson 14y ago
I think saying that the tech industry is only a small fraction of our total economy (and the world economy in general). It's a huge growth engine, but most of the jobs and companies out there aren't tech related. If we place too much of an emphasis on recruiting engineers, we risk shutting out other skilled (and unskilled) immigrants. Plenty of immigrants come to America with little more than a strong work ethic and a dream. They may have been too poor or disadvantaged to have afforded college, let alone an engineering degree, in their native countries. Hell, some of their native countries may not even have such opportunities. If we're restricting our search to highly skilled, highly educated workers, we're discriminating against everyone else who wants to participate in the American Dream. Lest we assume these people are necessarily undesirable, we should be reminded of the fact that many of our most successful and quintessentially "American" companies were founded by originally unskilled immigrant laborers. Andrew Carnegie is perhaps the most famous example. His family emigrated to the US from Scotland, dirt poor and uneducated. His first job was as a messenger boy. He grew, of course, to become one of America's wealthiest and most productive captains of industry. He didn't have the status "captain of industry" before applying to enter the US. He gained that status in the US, via the opportunities afforded by the US to someone of his work ethic and intelligence. (And even the less-than-Carnegian immigrants of the world fill crucial roles in our economy). Now, I disagree with the author in that he thinks a focus on engineers is necessarily a zero-sum game: that placing an emphasis on skilled workers precludes unskilled workers. It doesn't have to. I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater on Zuckerberg's argument, just because it's limited in scope. There's probably a lot more help than harm done by the sorts of reforms the group is seeking.
mjmahone17 14y ago
No, it's that the vast majority of immigrants are not working in tech. The vast majority of Americans are not working in tech. We have something like 11 million undocumented immigrants: their staying in the US should not be contingent on them being a part of the new business scene. Furthermore, why should the US be encouraging technologists to immigrate here, when fundamentally those immigrants are in the business of putting other people (Americans and immigrants both) out of work? Yes, this is great for Silicon Valley, and probably is good for NYC, but what about for Iowa and Nebraska?
- benackles 14y ago
  You're right that a vast majority of immigrants are not working in technology. However, I disagree with you that we shouldn't encourage immigration. The United States was built by immigrants. A majority of Americans are only a couple generations removed from being immigrants themselves. There's a good chance that you are as well. Many of the most innovative and industrious people were immigrants and not only in technology. The impact of sensible immigration policy that creates more tax payers (employers and/or employees) and greater transparency is good for the economy at large whether in technology or not. There is a risk to technology "putting other people...out of work", but that's irrelevant to whether they pay taxes in the United States or in another country.
- colevscode 14y ago
  This seems crazy to me. Right now those Nebraskans are competing with tech workers in other countries for tech jobs. If we bring more of those workers here, then 1) the competition will happen on US soil where we can ensure the playing field is fair and 2) an influx of well-paid immigrants will create more jobs for non tech-workers in support or service industries. Any way you slice it, having more tech workers in america is better than the current trend of sending jobs overseas. The only folks that might be harmed by this immigration shift are the tech elites here that command sky-high salaries.
- 27182818284 14y ago
  Nebraska and Iowa have growing tech scenes as well. Obviously it is nowhere close to NYC and Silicon Valley, but it isn't all farmland out here either, if that's what you were thinking. Off the top of my head: http://www.hudl.com/ http://www.hudl.com/ http://www.travefy.com/ http://www.travefy.com/ http://www.dwolla.com/ http://www.dwolla.com/ http://www.archrival.com/ http://www.archrival.com/ http://www.votertide.com/ http://www.votertide.com/ and even less-traditional sites such as http://www.occupytogether.org/ http://www.occupytogether.org/
benackles 14y ago
The article isn't condemning the cause of immigration reform, but rather shining a light on the fact that the most powerful voices are too narrowly focused. Technology visionaries seem to be overwhelmingly focused on self-serving initiatives in the name of economic growth. The reality is immigration reform needs to be felt throughout the economy, not simply towards engineers and knowledge workers. It's important for business leaders to stand up for immigration reform, but it would be better if they recognized the issue in a more holistic way. The economy is much larger than what is perceived within the Valley. Om Malik is one of the few journalists I trust within the bubble of Silicon Valley. Part of the reason this article has a lot of resonances is because he's a dissenting immigrant who understands the values of technology and startups.

jonnathanson 14y ago

I think saying that the tech industry is only a small fraction of our total economy (and the world economy in general). It's a huge growth engine, but most of the jobs and companies out there aren't tech related. If we place too much of an emphasis on recruiting engineers, we risk shutting out other skilled (and unskilled) immigrants. Plenty of immigrants come to America with little more than a strong work ethic and a dream. They may have been too poor or disadvantaged to have afforded college, let alone an engineering degree, in their native countries. Hell, some of their native countries may not even have such opportunities. If we're restricting our search to highly skilled, highly educated workers, we're discriminating against everyone else who wants to participate in the American Dream. Lest we assume these people are necessarily undesirable, we should be reminded of the fact that many of our most successful and quintessentially "American" companies were founded by originally unskilled immigrant laborers. Andrew Carnegie is perhaps the most famous example. His family emigrated to the US from Scotland, dirt poor and uneducated. His first job was as a messenger boy. He grew, of course, to become one of America's wealthiest and most productive captains of industry. He didn't have the status "captain of industry" before applying to enter the US. He gained that status in the US, via the opportunities afforded by the US to someone of his work ethic and intelligence. (And even the less-than-Carnegian immigrants of the world fill crucial roles in our economy). Now, I disagree with the author in that he thinks a focus on engineers is necessarily a zero-sum game: that placing an emphasis on skilled workers precludes unskilled workers. It doesn't have to. I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater on Zuckerberg's argument, just because it's limited in scope. There's probably a lot more help than harm done by the sorts of reforms the group is seeking.

mjmahone17 14y ago

No, it's that the vast majority of immigrants are not working in tech. The vast majority of Americans are not working in tech. We have something like 11 million undocumented immigrants: their staying in the US should not be contingent on them being a part of the new business scene. Furthermore, why should the US be encouraging technologists to immigrate here, when fundamentally those immigrants are in the business of putting other people (Americans and immigrants both) out of work? Yes, this is great for Silicon Valley, and probably is good for NYC, but what about for Iowa and Nebraska?

benackles 14y ago
You're right that a vast majority of immigrants are not working in technology. However, I disagree with you that we shouldn't encourage immigration. The United States was built by immigrants. A majority of Americans are only a couple generations removed from being immigrants themselves. There's a good chance that you are as well. Many of the most innovative and industrious people were immigrants and not only in technology. The impact of sensible immigration policy that creates more tax payers (employers and/or employees) and greater transparency is good for the economy at large whether in technology or not. There is a risk to technology "putting other people...out of work", but that's irrelevant to whether they pay taxes in the United States or in another country.
colevscode 14y ago
This seems crazy to me. Right now those Nebraskans are competing with tech workers in other countries for tech jobs. If we bring more of those workers here, then 1) the competition will happen on US soil where we can ensure the playing field is fair and 2) an influx of well-paid immigrants will create more jobs for non tech-workers in support or service industries. Any way you slice it, having more tech workers in america is better than the current trend of sending jobs overseas. The only folks that might be harmed by this immigration shift are the tech elites here that command sky-high salaries.
27182818284 14y ago
Nebraska and Iowa have growing tech scenes as well. Obviously it is nowhere close to NYC and Silicon Valley, but it isn't all farmland out here either, if that's what you were thinking. Off the top of my head: http://www.hudl.com/ http://www.hudl.com/ http://www.travefy.com/ http://www.travefy.com/ http://www.dwolla.com/ http://www.dwolla.com/ http://www.archrival.com/ http://www.archrival.com/ http://www.votertide.com/ http://www.votertide.com/ and even less-traditional sites such as http://www.occupytogether.org/ http://www.occupytogether.org/

benackles 14y ago

The article isn't condemning the cause of immigration reform, but rather shining a light on the fact that the most powerful voices are too narrowly focused. Technology visionaries seem to be overwhelmingly focused on self-serving initiatives in the name of economic growth. The reality is immigration reform needs to be felt throughout the economy, not simply towards engineers and knowledge workers. It's important for business leaders to stand up for immigration reform, but it would be better if they recognized the issue in a more holistic way. The economy is much larger than what is perceived within the Valley. Om Malik is one of the few journalists I trust within the bubble of Silicon Valley. Part of the reason this article has a lot of resonances is because he's a dissenting immigrant who understands the values of technology and startups.