6 ms·

Please. Bitcoin fanatics, come out and tell me that Bitcoin will change the world. That there will come another rise, and this time it won't be a bubble. Bec

Please. Bitcoin fanatics, come out and tell me that Bitcoin will change the world. That there will come another rise, and this time it won't be a bubble. Because I know you think these things, that you're true believers, and you think that an unregulated currency with a track record of insane volatility will replace our means of commerce somehow. Here's the thing: The majority of people that have Bitcoins now are the people that don't want to sell them. Ever. The mainstream media watched you this time. It saw just how dysfunctional Bitcoin is. You lost.

drcode 14y ago
I for one would be happy if the MSM would stay out until bitcoins are ready for prime time (another year perhaps)
- pyre 14y ago
  | ready for prime time (another year perhaps) Could this become another "Year of the Linux Desktop" meme? ;-)
drivebyacct2 14y ago
"You lost." I don't know if I'm more annoyed by your smug attitude (and the attitude that many others here have regarding Bitcoin), or if I just feel sorry for you that you have to be this smug and condescending about having been "right" that it is in a slump.
- Helianthus 14y ago
  I'm gloating like mad because I'm tired of the cloud of idealism that crops up in every Bitcoin article. I want to be rid of this financial magical thinking. I ain't gonna apologize for that. And I rather think your smug/condescending quota doubles mine.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    If I were a bigger ass, I'd just write "umad bro" and walk away. That would be about at your level, seeing as you pretty much just said "I'm mad because people thought Bitcoin had a brighter future." Not sure if you're mad at those of us that made a ton of money from holding and selling. Or are mad at those of us that wanted to trade with them. Or are you just mad at the silly people claiming Bitcoins would rule the world? Either way, you seem very mad over something that is worthy of no anger... unless you feel personally spurned by not having bought/sold as others?
    - Helianthus 14y ago
      I think you're mistaking my emotion here. I'm not angry at all. I'm actually a fair deal uglier than what you think: I'm openly gloating. I have been gawking at this whole process unabashedly. I'm going "I am so right!" I'd feel bad about it, but the whole thing is just so... _hilarious_.
      - drivebyacct2 14y ago
        I guess I don't think you understand how it works. Not everyone "lost". I can sell now at $64 and still have made a profit. A very, very, very small one compared to $266 a few days ago. There are plenty of people holding BTC that expected a "course correction" and every, single, time Mt.Gox hits lag and downtime, the price plummets. An artificial suspension on trading, at the exchange that does the huge bulk percent of trades... caused a huge slump in price?! Color me shocked. You totally saw the future on that one. I hope you're enjoying your delusional laughter.
        Helianthus 14y ago
        I hope you're enjoying your delusional investments! Seriously, _I_ have no hard feelings about this. I'm cheerful as all get out. You're sounding pretty defensive, though.
        14y ago
- baddox 14y ago
  Well, he has probably been careful to ensure that he can't lose according to his rules. If the USD to bitcoin exchange rate doubled every week for the rest of his life, he can easily maintain the claim that it will still eventually crash. If the exchange rate does crash, then he can say he was right. I can make the same claim about the US dollar. Without a time frame and price in the hypothesis, saying "it is doomed to crash" or "it is doomed to failure" is not a falsifiable statement.
seanalltogether 14y ago
"The majority of people that have Bitcoins now are the people that don't want to sell them. Ever." You may be right, however I don't think the inverse is true. "The majority of Bitcoins are owned by people that don't want to sell them. Ever" There are some big players now that absolutely want to continue selling coins as they're being earned.
- Nursie 14y ago
  Have you seen an actual analysis of this? Around 80% appear to be long-term dormant.
  - seanalltogether 14y ago
    About half the wallets on this list now have a zero balance, so big wallet holders are moving coins. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/06/22/the-bitcoin-richest-accumulating-large-balances/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/06/22/the-bitcoi... Plus the gambling sites are making a lot of coin, and I cant' imagine they're just sitting on them http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/01/22/bitcoin-casinos-release-2012-earnings/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/01/22/bitcoin-ca...
pyre 14y ago
| You lost. Would you really care to wager money that Bitcoin will never rise in price again? Regardless of whether or not it will 'take over the world,' it's too soon to say what will happen to Bitcoin. Wall Street didn't disappear because of the Great Depression, but I'll bet there were plenty of people right after the crash that were predicting doom and gloom. | Bitcoin fanatics You just come off as either an anti-Bitcoin fanatic or a troll. | insane volatility Do you really expect anything that is in its early stages to be stable? Nothing about Bitcoin is currently stable, and I don't exactly see people encouraging their grandmothers to use it for day-to-day transactions.
- Helianthus 14y ago
  Yes! Yes I am an anti-Bitcoin fanatic! Why? Because it's _so obvious_ to people outside the Bitcoin fixation that Bitcoin is crippled. And here you are saying "You don't _know_ it's not going to rise in price again" as if that constitutes a useful argument in favor of Bitcoin. You just _assume_ that Bitcoin is in its 'early' stages, that it's similar to Wall Street. Nothing Bitcoin does solves the problem money presents in the first place: its misuse by the greedy.
  - pyre 14y ago
    | Yes I am an anti-Bitcoin fanatic! "Fanatic" is usually a bad thing. It means that you are so invested in your extreme position that you are unwilling to listen to contradictory ideas/evidence. | And here you are saying "You don't _know_ it's | not going to rise in price again" as if that | constitutes a useful argument in favor of | Bitcoin. Who said I was arguing in favor of Bitcoin? I'm arguing that your position is too extreme, and derived from emotion rather than anything else. | You just _assume_ that Bitcoin is in its | 'early' stages, that it's similar to Wall | Street. All you're really doing here is redirecting. You're turning my statements into claims/assumptions without any discussions or supporting evidence. I'm now "assuming" that Bitcoin is in its early stages, but you have not said why you think that it isn't. I'm now "assuming" that Bitcoin is similar to Wall Street, but you're not saying why they are different. If Bitcoin is not in the 'early' stages as a currency, then what would you define as it's early stages? All you're really doing is Nothing Bitcoin does solves the problem money presents in the first place: its misuse by the greedy.
InclinedPlane 14y ago
The problem is that bitcoin is now dominated, at least it seems to me, by speculative investment. And that's not what currency is about. People value currency not because it appreciates but because it is stable. Runaway inflation and deflation are both bad for monetary systems, but here we have people imagining that deflation is fan-fucking-tastic for bitcoin. And that's telling, because it indicates that bitcoin isn't a medium of exchange, it's an investment denominated in dollars. People are talking about the "price" of bitcoin more than anything these days, but that's not why people choose a medium of exchange. Bitcoins shouldn't be exciting, they should be boring, and dependable. As boring and dependable as a dollar bill.
- obilgic 14y ago
  Yeap, it is like a microcap chinese manufactoring firm, high beta. don't depend on it, get in and out quickly...
- pseudonym 14y ago
  SatoshiDice and the controversy surrounding it has pretty well emphasized that Bitcoin is not going to be as widespread a currency as some of the true believers want it to be. It has a niche use in SR and other semi/illegal things, but it's really useful only as long as the price remains stable (in fact, during highly volatile periods like this, most of the smart SR merchants pack up shop until the BTC-USD rate has stabilized). However, the blockchain inherently limits BTC from being able to be used in the same way that, say, Paypal is right now, just because of it's inability to deal with a high volume of transactions, not to mention the confirmation time. And efforts to mitigate this through 3rd parties removes the distributed semianonymous merits, thus leading to a position where you're better off just using PayPal or a credit card anyways.
conanbatt 14y ago
Uhm. Bitcoin is still worth 150% what it was worth one year ago. Thats like saying the lottery winner didnt win because he had to pay taxes for it.
- jodrellblank 14y ago
  When Falkvinge put all his savings in, it was around $8.30/coin. http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-im-putting-all-my-savings-into-bitcoin/ http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-im-putting-all-my-saving...
ghshephard 14y ago
I'm curious as to whether you've purchased anything with Bitcoin? Or transferred money to someone in a different country using Bitcoin? The first time I sent Bitcoin directly from my wallet, to someone else's I was amazed at how quickly, and easily it was done - and blown away by the fact that it had been done in a decentralized manner. I think all Bitcoin users (as opposed to speculators) are highly annoyed by the volatility, but keep in mind, by and large, none of the transactional users of BitCoin care whether the nominal value of a Bitcoin is $1, $100, or $10,000. All we want is for it to be stable so we don't have to keep sweeping our local currency in/out of Bitcoin as we use it. I'm really curious as to where you are coming from, both personally and professionaly, when you utter single word sentences like, "You lost."
- Helianthus 14y ago
  >I'm really curious as to where you are coming from, both personally and professional, when you utter single word sentences like, "You lost." Oh I'm really just not a nice person. I actually appreciate the use of Bitcoin for the Silk Road. Sure, we need changes to our financial system. >All we want is for it to be stable so we don't have to keep sweeping our local currency in/out of Bitcoin as we use it. It's unfortunate that this will never happen. Bitcoin is _fundamentally flawed_.
  - legutierr 14y ago
    I'd be interested in hearing your case for Bitcoin being fundamentally flawed. Honestly, I can only guess what you mean. Is is because it is deflationary? Is it because there are more speculators in the market than actual users? Is there some other, technical flaw, perhaps?
    - ghshephard 14y ago
      As somewhat frequent Bitcoin user - the recent volatility combined with lag in the MtGox exchange (in the United States) - has made it next to impossible to use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, without a lot of back-and-forth refunds/top ups to make up for the rapidly changing value. If I send you 2 Bitcoins expecting they will be $200 USD when they get to you, but when you transfer them back to USD, they are only worth $150 - then I still need to send you another $50 in bitcoins. I can live with 10-20% volatility in currency a year, or even a month - but within a particular transaction? It makes the currency unusable. One thing that no bitcoin user I've talked to who uses it as a currency mentions, is the nominal value. They would be quite happy (more happy) with a $1 USD BC that never, ever, changed its value.
wcoenen 14y ago
I too watched the bubble mania in disbelief. But this wasn't the first time. In 2011 there was also an agressive bubble up to $30, with plenty of media attention. 6 months later the price was down to $3. The bitcoin fanatics should have "lost" back then. But instead bitcoin kept on chugging and expanded its user base. The same will happen this time. The speculators will move on but the group of people with a genuine interest in using bitcoin will have grown.
dj2stein9 14y ago
Have you even tried transfering money around with bitcoins? It's amazing. Absolutely amazing. The price of bitcoins is irrelevant and uninteresting compared to the way it facilitates transactions. It is incredible technology, potentially the most disruptive technology ever invented. And if anything the recent press will ultimately make more people aware of bitcoin, and perhaps lower prices will convince more people to try it out.
BrianEatWorld 14y ago
I think the speculators lost. Those of us who actually use bitcoins for transactions simply got a bit of free money out of the rise and knew to hold off until the exchange came back to reasonable levels. I still like bitcoin for what its good for and think that its real uses will keep it around for some time, whether the mainstream adopts it or not.
pg 14y ago
Would you please stop baiting people?
- Helianthus 14y ago
  ... Are you going to hell-ban me if I say no? I know HN has this odd focus on being polite, but I've found that a good honest brawl does more to express what people are thinking than timid conversation over tea. I mean, I'm done in this topic, if that'll satisfy you.
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    "honest brawl"? All you've done is act like a child and troll people. No where in any of your baiting replies in the last two weeks have you expressed a coherent or relevant thought to any discussion. Just you call Bitcoins and their users stupid and then today gloating like a petulant child.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - Helianthus 14y ago
    Well, done with the antagonistic bits in this topic at least--it turns out there are a few lines of cooler-headed discussion I want to follow.
    - Helianthus 14y ago
      Excellent, I'm in some sort of probation--artificial lag. (Multiple accounts, different browsers.) Let's see if I'm permanently afflicted or if it's a temporary thing. Is anyone else as curious about HN's opaque, passive-aggressive moderation as I am?
baddox 14y ago
Straw man army. Which bitcoin enthusiast said that "winning" requires "replacing our means of commerce" or "changing the world" or even "never having insane volatility"? I consider myself a bitcoin enthusiast, and I have never made any of those arguments, and I don't consider myself to have "lost." If the value of bitcoin goes to zero and stays there, I don't consider myself to have "lost." It's still an awesome idea that interests me from computer science and economic/political perspectives, and everything we've seen happen in the bitcoin economy is to me a cool proof of concept. I don't understand why the "anti-bitcoin fanatics" are so vehement in their criticism of bitcoin enthusiasts. You seem to deriving much more excitement from the recent bitcoin price drops than I ever did from its price increases. Honestly, I just think the decentralized transaction log based on proof-of-work is a really cool idea, and the hypothesis that there could be a trustworthy means of making and verifying transactions without a government or central authority controlling the thing being transacted is compelling. I would think that even if I just read the white paper and there had never been a single bitcoin transaction in real life. The fact that there is a high-profile bitcoin economy is just icing on the cake. The anti-bitcoin fanatics have carefully constructed their position to ensure that they can interpret literally any event as evidence that bitcoin is stupid or doomed or a scam. Is the price rising? That's obviously market irrationality and pure speculation. Is the price falling? That's clearly the market correcting itself. Is a certain exchange doing well and gaining a good reputation? That's an evil monopoly that goes against the decentralized goal of bitcoin. Is a certain exchange experience technical difficulties? Then that's just a bunch of incompetent amateurs, or worse, malicious scammers trying to distort the market. Is there a lack of people actually buying useful things with bitcoin? That's clear evidence that there is no real bitcoin economy. Is a business supporting bitcoin payments? Well that's still crap, since they're tying the price to the USD exchange price, or using credit cards, or the business owner is just some bitcoin shill, etc.
- danjumasule 14y ago
  Dear baddox My name is Danjuma Sule, one of the sons of major Gen Gumel Danjuma Sule, The late Nigeria's former minister of mines and power in the regime of the late former Nigeria's military Head of state, Gen Sanni Abacha. When my father died he left me an inheritance of 13002422.34343422 bitcoins. Unfortunately bitcoin exchanges are not yet set up in Nigerian currency and I am in need of a young techno wizard with a bank account denominated in US dollars to assist me in gaining access to my inheritance. It is on this basis I am seeking for assistance. Your percentage is negotiable. Please note; your age and profession doesn't really matter in this transaction. Waiting for your immediate response and bank account specifics. Regards, Danjuma Sule
SkyMarshal 14y ago
>Bitcoin fanatics, come out and tell me that Bitcoin will change the world. I am no Bitcoin fanatic, just an interested observer, but imho it already has. It has provided the first viable model for a decentralized p2p [currency|medium of exchange|payment system|something as yet uncategorizable] embedded in the Internet, rather than operated by a third party. The first iteration is imperfect, but subsequent versions that fix its problems are already being worked on. Some are scams, some are honest but flawed attempts at a better Bitcion, and eventually I expect a more sophisticated Bitcoin 2.0 to emerge. Imho, Bitcoin represents an inflection point. It may not make it to the promised land, but one of its descendents may. >You lost. There is no finish line. This game never ends. And Bitcoin's success does not necessarily mean the end of government currencies. I fully expect they will co-exist for a long time. Less emotional investment from both sides, less fixation on price/exchange rate, and more focus on the underlying ideas, technology, and their ramifications, both positive and negative, please.
- Helianthus 14y ago
  See, I can respect the experiment of it. The problem I have is that it is still going to be money, and it will still be subject to money's flaws. Meet the new investment bankers, same as the old ones. Ask yourself: if we had a global currency backed by the UN that was regulated a la NASDAQ (remember that guy complaining that mtgox was, essentially, unregulated), would that truly be less preferable to Bitcoin or similar? Official things have a purpose. Someone, some entity to be accountable provides more of an indication of our affirmed agreement.
  - SkyMarshal 14y ago
    >would that truly be less preferable to Bitcoin or similar? No idea without more detail on what that would look like. But the ultimate goal of BTC and hopefully its forks and descendants is to replace that centralized (corruptible) human authority with a decentralized, transparent, fair, robust and reliable system instead. It's not there yet, and may ultimately be impossible, formerly undecidable even, but it's opened a new avenue for research and experimentation that has never been possible before. Whether Bitcoin itself succeeds or fails, that alone is a huge win imho.

drcode 14y ago

I for one would be happy if the MSM would stay out until bitcoins are ready for prime time (another year perhaps)

pyre 14y ago
| ready for prime time (another year perhaps) Could this become another "Year of the Linux Desktop" meme? ;-)

drivebyacct2 14y ago

"You lost." I don't know if I'm more annoyed by your smug attitude (and the attitude that many others here have regarding Bitcoin), or if I just feel sorry for you that you have to be this smug and condescending about having been "right" that it is in a slump.

Helianthus 14y ago
I'm gloating like mad because I'm tired of the cloud of idealism that crops up in every Bitcoin article. I want to be rid of this financial magical thinking. I ain't gonna apologize for that. And I rather think your smug/condescending quota doubles mine.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  If I were a bigger ass, I'd just write "umad bro" and walk away. That would be about at your level, seeing as you pretty much just said "I'm mad because people thought Bitcoin had a brighter future." Not sure if you're mad at those of us that made a ton of money from holding and selling. Or are mad at those of us that wanted to trade with them. Or are you just mad at the silly people claiming Bitcoins would rule the world? Either way, you seem very mad over something that is worthy of no anger... unless you feel personally spurned by not having bought/sold as others?
  - Helianthus 14y ago
    I think you're mistaking my emotion here. I'm not angry at all. I'm actually a fair deal uglier than what you think: I'm openly gloating. I have been gawking at this whole process unabashedly. I'm going "I am so right!" I'd feel bad about it, but the whole thing is just so... _hilarious_.
    - drivebyacct2 14y ago
      I guess I don't think you understand how it works. Not everyone "lost". I can sell now at $64 and still have made a profit. A very, very, very small one compared to $266 a few days ago. There are plenty of people holding BTC that expected a "course correction" and every, single, time Mt.Gox hits lag and downtime, the price plummets. An artificial suspension on trading, at the exchange that does the huge bulk percent of trades... caused a huge slump in price?! Color me shocked. You totally saw the future on that one. I hope you're enjoying your delusional laughter.
      - Helianthus 14y ago
        I hope you're enjoying your delusional investments! Seriously, _I_ have no hard feelings about this. I'm cheerful as all get out. You're sounding pretty defensive, though.
        14y ago
baddox 14y ago
Well, he has probably been careful to ensure that he can't lose according to his rules. If the USD to bitcoin exchange rate doubled every week for the rest of his life, he can easily maintain the claim that it will still eventually crash. If the exchange rate does crash, then he can say he was right. I can make the same claim about the US dollar. Without a time frame and price in the hypothesis, saying "it is doomed to crash" or "it is doomed to failure" is not a falsifiable statement.

seanalltogether 14y ago

"The majority of people that have Bitcoins now are the people that don't want to sell them. Ever." You may be right, however I don't think the inverse is true. "The majority of Bitcoins are owned by people that don't want to sell them. Ever" There are some big players now that absolutely want to continue selling coins as they're being earned.

Nursie 14y ago
Have you seen an actual analysis of this? Around 80% appear to be long-term dormant.
- seanalltogether 14y ago
  About half the wallets on this list now have a zero balance, so big wallet holders are moving coins. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/06/22/the-bitcoin-richest-accumulating-large-balances/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/06/22/the-bitcoi... Plus the gambling sites are making a lot of coin, and I cant' imagine they're just sitting on them http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/01/22/bitcoin-casinos-release-2012-earnings/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/01/22/bitcoin-ca...

pyre 14y ago

| You lost. Would you really care to wager money that Bitcoin will never rise in price again? Regardless of whether or not it will 'take over the world,' it's too soon to say what will happen to Bitcoin. Wall Street didn't disappear because of the Great Depression, but I'll bet there were plenty of people right after the crash that were predicting doom and gloom. | Bitcoin fanatics You just come off as either an anti-Bitcoin fanatic or a troll. | insane volatility Do you really expect anything that is in its early stages to be stable? Nothing about Bitcoin is currently stable, and I don't exactly see people encouraging their grandmothers to use it for day-to-day transactions.

Helianthus 14y ago
Yes! Yes I am an anti-Bitcoin fanatic! Why? Because it's _so obvious_ to people outside the Bitcoin fixation that Bitcoin is crippled. And here you are saying "You don't _know_ it's not going to rise in price again" as if that constitutes a useful argument in favor of Bitcoin. You just _assume_ that Bitcoin is in its 'early' stages, that it's similar to Wall Street. Nothing Bitcoin does solves the problem money presents in the first place: its misuse by the greedy.
- pyre 14y ago
  | Yes I am an anti-Bitcoin fanatic! "Fanatic" is usually a bad thing. It means that you are so invested in your extreme position that you are unwilling to listen to contradictory ideas/evidence. | And here you are saying "You don't _know_ it's | not going to rise in price again" as if that | constitutes a useful argument in favor of | Bitcoin. Who said I was arguing in favor of Bitcoin? I'm arguing that your position is too extreme, and derived from emotion rather than anything else. | You just _assume_ that Bitcoin is in its | 'early' stages, that it's similar to Wall | Street. All you're really doing here is redirecting. You're turning my statements into claims/assumptions without any discussions or supporting evidence. I'm now "assuming" that Bitcoin is in its early stages, but you have not said why you think that it isn't. I'm now "assuming" that Bitcoin is similar to Wall Street, but you're not saying why they are different. If Bitcoin is not in the 'early' stages as a currency, then what would you define as it's early stages? All you're really doing is Nothing Bitcoin does solves the problem money presents in the first place: its misuse by the greedy.

InclinedPlane 14y ago

The problem is that bitcoin is now dominated, at least it seems to me, by speculative investment. And that's not what currency is about. People value currency not because it appreciates but because it is stable. Runaway inflation and deflation are both bad for monetary systems, but here we have people imagining that deflation is fan-fucking-tastic for bitcoin. And that's telling, because it indicates that bitcoin isn't a medium of exchange, it's an investment denominated in dollars. People are talking about the "price" of bitcoin more than anything these days, but that's not why people choose a medium of exchange. Bitcoins shouldn't be exciting, they should be boring, and dependable. As boring and dependable as a dollar bill.

obilgic 14y ago
Yeap, it is like a microcap chinese manufactoring firm, high beta. don't depend on it, get in and out quickly...
pseudonym 14y ago
SatoshiDice and the controversy surrounding it has pretty well emphasized that Bitcoin is not going to be as widespread a currency as some of the true believers want it to be. It has a niche use in SR and other semi/illegal things, but it's really useful only as long as the price remains stable (in fact, during highly volatile periods like this, most of the smart SR merchants pack up shop until the BTC-USD rate has stabilized). However, the blockchain inherently limits BTC from being able to be used in the same way that, say, Paypal is right now, just because of it's inability to deal with a high volume of transactions, not to mention the confirmation time. And efforts to mitigate this through 3rd parties removes the distributed semianonymous merits, thus leading to a position where you're better off just using PayPal or a credit card anyways.

conanbatt 14y ago

Uhm. Bitcoin is still worth 150% what it was worth one year ago. Thats like saying the lottery winner didnt win because he had to pay taxes for it.

jodrellblank 14y ago
When Falkvinge put all his savings in, it was around $8.30/coin. http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-im-putting-all-my-savings-into-bitcoin/ http://falkvinge.net/2011/05/29/why-im-putting-all-my-saving...

ghshephard 14y ago

I'm curious as to whether you've purchased anything with Bitcoin? Or transferred money to someone in a different country using Bitcoin? The first time I sent Bitcoin directly from my wallet, to someone else's I was amazed at how quickly, and easily it was done - and blown away by the fact that it had been done in a decentralized manner. I think all Bitcoin users (as opposed to speculators) are highly annoyed by the volatility, but keep in mind, by and large, none of the transactional users of BitCoin care whether the nominal value of a Bitcoin is $1, $100, or $10,000. All we want is for it to be stable so we don't have to keep sweeping our local currency in/out of Bitcoin as we use it. I'm really curious as to where you are coming from, both personally and professionaly, when you utter single word sentences like, "You lost."

Helianthus 14y ago
>I'm really curious as to where you are coming from, both personally and professional, when you utter single word sentences like, "You lost." Oh I'm really just not a nice person. I actually appreciate the use of Bitcoin for the Silk Road. Sure, we need changes to our financial system. >All we want is for it to be stable so we don't have to keep sweeping our local currency in/out of Bitcoin as we use it. It's unfortunate that this will never happen. Bitcoin is _fundamentally flawed_.
- legutierr 14y ago
  I'd be interested in hearing your case for Bitcoin being fundamentally flawed. Honestly, I can only guess what you mean. Is is because it is deflationary? Is it because there are more speculators in the market than actual users? Is there some other, technical flaw, perhaps?
  - ghshephard 14y ago
    As somewhat frequent Bitcoin user - the recent volatility combined with lag in the MtGox exchange (in the United States) - has made it next to impossible to use Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, without a lot of back-and-forth refunds/top ups to make up for the rapidly changing value. If I send you 2 Bitcoins expecting they will be $200 USD when they get to you, but when you transfer them back to USD, they are only worth $150 - then I still need to send you another $50 in bitcoins. I can live with 10-20% volatility in currency a year, or even a month - but within a particular transaction? It makes the currency unusable. One thing that no bitcoin user I've talked to who uses it as a currency mentions, is the nominal value. They would be quite happy (more happy) with a $1 USD BC that never, ever, changed its value.

wcoenen 14y ago

I too watched the bubble mania in disbelief. But this wasn't the first time. In 2011 there was also an agressive bubble up to $30, with plenty of media attention. 6 months later the price was down to $3. The bitcoin fanatics should have "lost" back then. But instead bitcoin kept on chugging and expanded its user base. The same will happen this time. The speculators will move on but the group of people with a genuine interest in using bitcoin will have grown.

dj2stein9 14y ago

Have you even tried transfering money around with bitcoins? It's amazing. Absolutely amazing. The price of bitcoins is irrelevant and uninteresting compared to the way it facilitates transactions. It is incredible technology, potentially the most disruptive technology ever invented. And if anything the recent press will ultimately make more people aware of bitcoin, and perhaps lower prices will convince more people to try it out.

BrianEatWorld 14y ago

I think the speculators lost. Those of us who actually use bitcoins for transactions simply got a bit of free money out of the rise and knew to hold off until the exchange came back to reasonable levels. I still like bitcoin for what its good for and think that its real uses will keep it around for some time, whether the mainstream adopts it or not.

pg 14y ago

Would you please stop baiting people?

Helianthus 14y ago
... Are you going to hell-ban me if I say no? I know HN has this odd focus on being polite, but I've found that a good honest brawl does more to express what people are thinking than timid conversation over tea. I mean, I'm done in this topic, if that'll satisfy you.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  "honest brawl"? All you've done is act like a child and troll people. No where in any of your baiting replies in the last two weeks have you expressed a coherent or relevant thought to any discussion. Just you call Bitcoins and their users stupid and then today gloating like a petulant child.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- Helianthus 14y ago
  Well, done with the antagonistic bits in this topic at least--it turns out there are a few lines of cooler-headed discussion I want to follow.
  - Helianthus 14y ago
    Excellent, I'm in some sort of probation--artificial lag. (Multiple accounts, different browsers.) Let's see if I'm permanently afflicted or if it's a temporary thing. Is anyone else as curious about HN's opaque, passive-aggressive moderation as I am?

baddox 14y ago

Straw man army. Which bitcoin enthusiast said that "winning" requires "replacing our means of commerce" or "changing the world" or even "never having insane volatility"? I consider myself a bitcoin enthusiast, and I have never made any of those arguments, and I don't consider myself to have "lost." If the value of bitcoin goes to zero and stays there, I don't consider myself to have "lost." It's still an awesome idea that interests me from computer science and economic/political perspectives, and everything we've seen happen in the bitcoin economy is to me a cool proof of concept. I don't understand why the "anti-bitcoin fanatics" are so vehement in their criticism of bitcoin enthusiasts. You seem to deriving much more excitement from the recent bitcoin price drops than I ever did from its price increases. Honestly, I just think the decentralized transaction log based on proof-of-work is a really cool idea, and the hypothesis that there could be a trustworthy means of making and verifying transactions without a government or central authority controlling the thing being transacted is compelling. I would think that even if I just read the white paper and there had never been a single bitcoin transaction in real life. The fact that there is a high-profile bitcoin economy is just icing on the cake. The anti-bitcoin fanatics have carefully constructed their position to ensure that they can interpret literally any event as evidence that bitcoin is stupid or doomed or a scam. Is the price rising? That's obviously market irrationality and pure speculation. Is the price falling? That's clearly the market correcting itself. Is a certain exchange doing well and gaining a good reputation? That's an evil monopoly that goes against the decentralized goal of bitcoin. Is a certain exchange experience technical difficulties? Then that's just a bunch of incompetent amateurs, or worse, malicious scammers trying to distort the market. Is there a lack of people actually buying useful things with bitcoin? That's clear evidence that there is no real bitcoin economy. Is a business supporting bitcoin payments? Well that's still crap, since they're tying the price to the USD exchange price, or using credit cards, or the business owner is just some bitcoin shill, etc.

danjumasule 14y ago
Dear baddox My name is Danjuma Sule, one of the sons of major Gen Gumel Danjuma Sule, The late Nigeria's former minister of mines and power in the regime of the late former Nigeria's military Head of state, Gen Sanni Abacha. When my father died he left me an inheritance of 13002422.34343422 bitcoins. Unfortunately bitcoin exchanges are not yet set up in Nigerian currency and I am in need of a young techno wizard with a bank account denominated in US dollars to assist me in gaining access to my inheritance. It is on this basis I am seeking for assistance. Your percentage is negotiable. Please note; your age and profession doesn't really matter in this transaction. Waiting for your immediate response and bank account specifics. Regards, Danjuma Sule

SkyMarshal 14y ago

>Bitcoin fanatics, come out and tell me that Bitcoin will change the world. I am no Bitcoin fanatic, just an interested observer, but imho it already has. It has provided the first viable model for a decentralized p2p [currency|medium of exchange|payment system|something as yet uncategorizable] embedded in the Internet, rather than operated by a third party. The first iteration is imperfect, but subsequent versions that fix its problems are already being worked on. Some are scams, some are honest but flawed attempts at a better Bitcion, and eventually I expect a more sophisticated Bitcoin 2.0 to emerge. Imho, Bitcoin represents an inflection point. It may not make it to the promised land, but one of its descendents may. >You lost. There is no finish line. This game never ends. And Bitcoin's success does not necessarily mean the end of government currencies. I fully expect they will co-exist for a long time. Less emotional investment from both sides, less fixation on price/exchange rate, and more focus on the underlying ideas, technology, and their ramifications, both positive and negative, please.

Helianthus 14y ago
See, I can respect the experiment of it. The problem I have is that it is still going to be money, and it will still be subject to money's flaws. Meet the new investment bankers, same as the old ones. Ask yourself: if we had a global currency backed by the UN that was regulated a la NASDAQ (remember that guy complaining that mtgox was, essentially, unregulated), would that truly be less preferable to Bitcoin or similar? Official things have a purpose. Someone, some entity to be accountable provides more of an indication of our affirmed agreement.
- SkyMarshal 14y ago
  >would that truly be less preferable to Bitcoin or similar? No idea without more detail on what that would look like. But the ultimate goal of BTC and hopefully its forks and descendants is to replace that centralized (corruptible) human authority with a decentralized, transparent, fair, robust and reliable system instead. It's not there yet, and may ultimately be impossible, formerly undecidable even, but it's opened a new avenue for research and experimentation that has never been possible before. Whether Bitcoin itself succeeds or fails, that alone is a huge win imho.