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>> How weird is it that it's less odd to see someone's dog next to their Ikea desk than it is to see their 4 year old? I would find either of those things in a

>> How weird is it that it's less odd to see someone's dog next to their Ikea desk than it is to see their 4 year old? I would find either of those things in a business odd. Maybe I don't understand because I'm a young guy but I don't see how integrating your employees family's into business life is helpful. I've never found the mixing of business and personal relationships to have any positive effects. Could you give a couple of examples of how a business which incorporates employees family's is beneficial?

tptacek 14y ago
For a lot of startups, this idea of not mixing business with employee personal lives tacitly does mix them up, but does so by co-opting time and energy from employee personal lives.
coldtea 14y ago
>Could you give a couple of examples of how a business which incorporates employees family's is beneficial? For one, it's more humane. Family businesses, and businesses with close relations, have worked for centuries in other fields. So why not in software/tech? Of course if "making it big by any means" it's what motivates you, then don't do it. The family/close business is more like the highly successful restaurant that refuses to even become a chain.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Saying that 80 hours weeks are what it takes to become the next Google is like saying being an asshole is what it takes to be the next Steve Jobs.
larrys 14y ago
Older guy with children here. To me having a 4 year old, even well behaved, in the office is disruptive - period. Maybe occasionally is fine and a treat for everyone but I simply can't see how doing that on any regular basis makes any sense at all. And no comparison to a pet who, while needing walking and might bark occasionally, or get attention from co workers, can sit for hours and do nothing and not make any demands. Not that I haven't seen children of the owners of sushi or chinese restaurants sitting doing their homework while the parents work.
- tptacek 14y ago
  I think it's worth considering how the physical structure of the office and how the structure of people's working time at the office makes children more disruptive than pets. I'm not a fan of dogs in the office during the day to begin with. Maybe it doesn't make sense to have kids coming in after school, either. But if you're regularly going to have people working into the evening out of a sense of shared endeavor, integrating kids into that (maybe they can do their homework, or play video games in the corner, or just eat a shared meal there) doesn't seem crazy. I concede that you have to plan this out in advance; you can't just take an already-running open plan office in San Mateo and say "bring your 4 year old to work any time" and have that work out.
  - trhtrsh 14y ago
    Do you have kids? Having a 4-year-old in the office all day while people are working is negligent child care, except in cases of temporary emergency. Dogs can nap on the floor for 8 hours and be happy and not bother anyone.
    - tptacek 14y ago
      Allow me to blow your mind: I have both kids (plural) and a dog (singular). If the point you haphazardly tried to make here was "it's impossible to care for a preschooler in a knowledge worker environment", I'm just going to say you're wrong.
      - enraged_camel 14y ago
        Sorry man. I want to agree with you - I really do. But I cannot envision myself both focusing on work and caring for a preschooler effectively. I might be able to do one well, but the other will necessarily suffer. Humans cannot multi-task, period, and research very clearly shows that switching tasks and contexts on a regular basis hurts productivity significantly. I think the idea of work-life separation exists for a reason. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
jfoster 14y ago
I had lunch with a friend at Google and noticed that quite a few Googlers had their families coming in to have lunch with them. It seemed nice that people got to see their families in the middle of the day for an extra meal. I think that's one example where it was actually quite a nice way of balancing out the work day. That's one example, although I mostly share your view. I don't imagine that deep intertwining of work and personal life is necessarily a good thing.

tptacek 14y ago

For a lot of startups, this idea of not mixing business with employee personal lives tacitly does mix them up, but does so by co-opting time and energy from employee personal lives.

coldtea 14y ago

>Could you give a couple of examples of how a business which incorporates employees family's is beneficial? For one, it's more humane. Family businesses, and businesses with close relations, have worked for centuries in other fields. So why not in software/tech? Of course if "making it big by any means" it's what motivates you, then don't do it. The family/close business is more like the highly successful restaurant that refuses to even become a chain.

tptacek 14y ago
Saying that 80 hours weeks are what it takes to become the next Google is like saying being an asshole is what it takes to be the next Steve Jobs.

larrys 14y ago

Older guy with children here. To me having a 4 year old, even well behaved, in the office is disruptive - period. Maybe occasionally is fine and a treat for everyone but I simply can't see how doing that on any regular basis makes any sense at all. And no comparison to a pet who, while needing walking and might bark occasionally, or get attention from co workers, can sit for hours and do nothing and not make any demands. Not that I haven't seen children of the owners of sushi or chinese restaurants sitting doing their homework while the parents work.

tptacek 14y ago
I think it's worth considering how the physical structure of the office and how the structure of people's working time at the office makes children more disruptive than pets. I'm not a fan of dogs in the office during the day to begin with. Maybe it doesn't make sense to have kids coming in after school, either. But if you're regularly going to have people working into the evening out of a sense of shared endeavor, integrating kids into that (maybe they can do their homework, or play video games in the corner, or just eat a shared meal there) doesn't seem crazy. I concede that you have to plan this out in advance; you can't just take an already-running open plan office in San Mateo and say "bring your 4 year old to work any time" and have that work out.
- trhtrsh 14y ago
  Do you have kids? Having a 4-year-old in the office all day while people are working is negligent child care, except in cases of temporary emergency. Dogs can nap on the floor for 8 hours and be happy and not bother anyone.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    Allow me to blow your mind: I have both kids (plural) and a dog (singular). If the point you haphazardly tried to make here was "it's impossible to care for a preschooler in a knowledge worker environment", I'm just going to say you're wrong.
    - enraged_camel 14y ago
      Sorry man. I want to agree with you - I really do. But I cannot envision myself both focusing on work and caring for a preschooler effectively. I might be able to do one well, but the other will necessarily suffer. Humans cannot multi-task, period, and research very clearly shows that switching tasks and contexts on a regular basis hurts productivity significantly. I think the idea of work-life separation exists for a reason. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

jfoster 14y ago

I had lunch with a friend at Google and noticed that quite a few Googlers had their families coming in to have lunch with them. It seemed nice that people got to see their families in the middle of the day for an extra meal. I think that's one example where it was actually quite a nice way of balancing out the work day. That's one example, although I mostly share your view. I don't imagine that deep intertwining of work and personal life is necessarily a good thing.