3 ms·

And that's bad, because...? We (and my kids) own lots of guns (my sons (18 and 23) are hunting nuts and gun collectors). Guns are just tools. And the Second A

by cpr 18y ago

And that's bad, because...? We (and my kids) own lots of guns (my sons (18 and 23) are hunting nuts and gun collectors). Guns are just tools. And the Second Amendment exists for a reason. Governments are less likely to turn on their people if the latter are widely armed.

ankhmoop 18y ago
The irresponsibility of the general population is such that I am alarmed by a significant increase in gun ownership, irrespective of my belief in the right to bear arms. Additionally, gun collecting is demonstrative of collecting behavior, rather than treatment of the gun as purely a tool. Guns, especially given their purpose as tools, are simply not collectible totems.
- maxharris 18y ago
  > are simply not collectible totems Have you ever met anyone that has a firearm or firearm-related hobby? I'm guessing that you haven't. A little secret: they're not all hicks, militia members, xenophobes, etc. Those terrible stereotypes don't apply to any of my friends and family members that keep guns, and I strongly suspect that they're not true of the general population either.
  - klump5 18y ago
    The GP didn't state that all firearm owners were "hicks, militia members, xenophobes, etc."
  - carbon8 18y ago
    Have you ever met anyone that has a firearm or firearm-related hobby? I'm guessing that you haven't. This is a really, really, really bad assumption. I don't know about ankhmoop, but I own guns and have throughout my life. Most of my family members own firearms and a couple of my friends are collectors. I, too, am alarmed by sudden increases in firearm sales in the US, as are all other gun owners that I have spoken to about it, since it has been prompted by political rhetoric and the economic downturn.
- cpr 18y ago
  This is patently false. Guns are beautiful machines made by men. Some people collect cars, others hand-painted Easter eggs. Guns are quite collectible totems qua beautiful machines.
  - klump5 18y ago
    Ergo: "gun collecting is demonstrative of collecting behavior, rather than treatment of the gun as purely a tool". You appear to contradict your statement that "Guns are just tools".
    - cpr 18y ago
      And there are no tool collectors? I also collect beautiful tools. (E.g., old timber-framing drills.)
      - klump5 18y ago
        There are tool collectors, but they are demonstrating "collecting behavior". In Boy Scouts we were taught to respect and appreciate guns as the very dangerous tools they are. I can personally only agree with your original statement: Guns -are- only tools, and should only be treated as tools.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]
- icey 18y ago
  So if they didn't have access to guns they would have decided that they wanted to live after all? That doesn't make sense to me.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - philwelch 18y ago
    The thought processes of suicidal people don't tend to make sense to me, either. Suicide is often a fairly impulsive thing, and suicidal people can be deterred by even slight inconveniences. That's why things like suicide barriers on bridges work. Guns are a very attractive method of suicide—they're rather instant, painless, easy to use, and so forth. I'm in favor of gun ownership, but suicidal people, deprived of easy methods of suicide, will often reconsider entirely. The moment will pass and they will not kill themselves. Of course, some people decide to kill themselves and remain very determined about the process. Not all suicides are alike.
    - icey 18y ago
      If we get rid of guns because of the suicidal people, will we get rid of pills next? After that we can get rid of rope, fire, plastic bags, anything with a sharp edge, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, anything flammable and water; just to be safe. I think your point is that guns make suicide easy, and I get that; but I think it's a tough spot to defend in terms of gun control. Suicide is easy, people will always find a way to do it.
      - philwelch 18y ago
        As I said, I'm against gun control too. But I'm also in favor of facts, and the facts seem to indicate that having more guns around just might allow more people to impulsively kill themselves.
breck 18y ago
...because people buy batteries and canned foods before a hurricane. I look at a large increase in gun sales as an early indicator of how bad people believe the economy and crime will get. Of course, people bought lots of batteries and guns before Y2K too. I'm not anti-gun at all. I owned a BB gun growing up and loved it. Also have been to a few shooting ranges in my day. And I think the right to bear arms is important for keeping the Queen of England out of my face. Regardless, it's an interesting, countercyclical stat. If you had a business that sold items that people buy a lot more of when they are afraid, it's probably boom time right now.
noaharc 18y ago
"And the Second Amendment exists for a reason. Governments are less likely to turn on their people if the latter are widely armed." Do you really think so? I support the libertarian spirit of the amendment, and I do think it was a legitimate argument in past centuries, but today I can't imagine that hunting rifles and 9mms even break the Top 10 list as to why the military doesn't stage a coup. (If you think that's an argument for relaxed gun control, consider what types of weapons and what kind of prevalence would be necessary to compete with US armed forces. Not being an expert, I'd imagine we would need assault rifles, RPGs, and everything else we see over in Iraq and Afghanistan. In my opinion, the drawbacks of that kind of civilian militarization far outweigh the benefits.) If you're curious, these might be my actual Top 10 (unordered): free speech and press; large territory; widespread education and literacy; fast, reliable, long-distance communication; an active Congress; civilian presidents; diversity (in all the usual categories -- ethnicity, religion, politics, etc); wealth; peace; social mobility. After all, even a dictator requires the consent of the governed.

by cpr 18y ago

ankhmoop 18y ago

The irresponsibility of the general population is such that I am alarmed by a significant increase in gun ownership, irrespective of my belief in the right to bear arms. Additionally, gun collecting is demonstrative of collecting behavior, rather than treatment of the gun as purely a tool. Guns, especially given their purpose as tools, are simply not collectible totems.

maxharris 18y ago
> are simply not collectible totems Have you ever met anyone that has a firearm or firearm-related hobby? I'm guessing that you haven't. A little secret: they're not all hicks, militia members, xenophobes, etc. Those terrible stereotypes don't apply to any of my friends and family members that keep guns, and I strongly suspect that they're not true of the general population either.
- klump5 18y ago
  The GP didn't state that all firearm owners were "hicks, militia members, xenophobes, etc."
- carbon8 18y ago
  Have you ever met anyone that has a firearm or firearm-related hobby? I'm guessing that you haven't. This is a really, really, really bad assumption. I don't know about ankhmoop, but I own guns and have throughout my life. Most of my family members own firearms and a couple of my friends are collectors. I, too, am alarmed by sudden increases in firearm sales in the US, as are all other gun owners that I have spoken to about it, since it has been prompted by political rhetoric and the economic downturn.
cpr 18y ago
This is patently false. Guns are beautiful machines made by men. Some people collect cars, others hand-painted Easter eggs. Guns are quite collectible totems qua beautiful machines.
- klump5 18y ago
  Ergo: "gun collecting is demonstrative of collecting behavior, rather than treatment of the gun as purely a tool". You appear to contradict your statement that "Guns are just tools".
  - cpr 18y ago
    And there are no tool collectors? I also collect beautiful tools. (E.g., old timber-framing drills.)
    - klump5 18y ago
      There are tool collectors, but they are demonstrating "collecting behavior". In Boy Scouts we were taught to respect and appreciate guns as the very dangerous tools they are. I can personally only agree with your original statement: Guns -are- only tools, and should only be treated as tools.
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

icey 18y ago
So if they didn't have access to guns they would have decided that they wanted to live after all? That doesn't make sense to me.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- philwelch 18y ago
  The thought processes of suicidal people don't tend to make sense to me, either. Suicide is often a fairly impulsive thing, and suicidal people can be deterred by even slight inconveniences. That's why things like suicide barriers on bridges work. Guns are a very attractive method of suicide—they're rather instant, painless, easy to use, and so forth. I'm in favor of gun ownership, but suicidal people, deprived of easy methods of suicide, will often reconsider entirely. The moment will pass and they will not kill themselves. Of course, some people decide to kill themselves and remain very determined about the process. Not all suicides are alike.
  - icey 18y ago
    If we get rid of guns because of the suicidal people, will we get rid of pills next? After that we can get rid of rope, fire, plastic bags, anything with a sharp edge, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, anything flammable and water; just to be safe. I think your point is that guns make suicide easy, and I get that; but I think it's a tough spot to defend in terms of gun control. Suicide is easy, people will always find a way to do it.
    - philwelch 18y ago
      As I said, I'm against gun control too. But I'm also in favor of facts, and the facts seem to indicate that having more guns around just might allow more people to impulsively kill themselves.

breck 18y ago

...because people buy batteries and canned foods before a hurricane. I look at a large increase in gun sales as an early indicator of how bad people believe the economy and crime will get. Of course, people bought lots of batteries and guns before Y2K too. I'm not anti-gun at all. I owned a BB gun growing up and loved it. Also have been to a few shooting ranges in my day. And I think the right to bear arms is important for keeping the Queen of England out of my face. Regardless, it's an interesting, countercyclical stat. If you had a business that sold items that people buy a lot more of when they are afraid, it's probably boom time right now.

noaharc 18y ago

"And the Second Amendment exists for a reason. Governments are less likely to turn on their people if the latter are widely armed." Do you really think so? I support the libertarian spirit of the amendment, and I do think it was a legitimate argument in past centuries, but today I can't imagine that hunting rifles and 9mms even break the Top 10 list as to why the military doesn't stage a coup. (If you think that's an argument for relaxed gun control, consider what types of weapons and what kind of prevalence would be necessary to compete with US armed forces. Not being an expert, I'd imagine we would need assault rifles, RPGs, and everything else we see over in Iraq and Afghanistan. In my opinion, the drawbacks of that kind of civilian militarization far outweigh the benefits.) If you're curious, these might be my actual Top 10 (unordered): free speech and press; large territory; widespread education and literacy; fast, reliable, long-distance communication; an active Congress; civilian presidents; diversity (in all the usual categories -- ethnicity, religion, politics, etc); wealth; peace; social mobility. After all, even a dictator requires the consent of the governed.