4 ms·

Yay, tech companies band together to benefit from importing more foreign workers to the U.S. to work for half of the prevailing wage. I'd support this change t

Yay, tech companies band together to benefit from importing more foreign workers to the U.S. to work for half of the prevailing wage. I'd support this change to the H1B program: it's now totally unlimited, with this caveat: hiring companies must pay 150% of the prevailing wage to any hired workers. This should be a win-win - companies like Facebook and Yahoo get to hire as many workers as they want, from anywhere in the world. And with multi-billion dollar profit margins, slightly increased salaries should not be a problem. After all, we know that good tech workers make much more for their companies than their salaries cost. Any takers? No? Huh.

untog 14y ago
Any citation of "half the prevailing wage"? I've seen this cited time and time again, but with little evidence to back it up. I am an H1B holder and I know a number of others- we are all paid very well.
- chime 14y ago
  Being paid very well is different from being paid the market wages. Could you get a higher paying job with your credentials in your area doing similar work? /former H1B
  - untog 14y ago
    I have done exactly that a number of times- I am on my third job in the US on my H1B visa, and am absolutely paid market rate for my time.
- jellicle 14y ago
  http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages http://hothardware.com/News/Study-H1B-Visas-Lower-US-Programmer-Pay/ http://hothardware.com/News/Study-H1B-Visas-Lower-US-Program...
  - untog 14y ago
    A "5-6% drop in wages" isn't "half", though, is it? And the CIS is an organisation that advocates reducing immigration[1]- excuse me if I take their report with a pinch of salt: Applications for 47 percent of H-1B computer programming workers were for wages below even the prevailing wage Note that they switched from "workers" to "applications" on that one. Applications with wages below the prevailing level are usually denied. It's little details like that which ruin any trust I might have in a report that is nearly ten years old. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies
    - pixelcort 14y ago
      Even further, if 47% were wages below, that means 53% were for above, right? Of course, we don't know the distribution, but at a glance that means that more applications were for above the prevailing wage.
ryguytilidie 14y ago
When you say "half the prevailing wage" where are you getting that figure? I've hired people for Facebook, Google and many startups around SF and I can say with 100% certainty that you aren't even close. I would say that H1-B candidates pay is pretty much exactly the same as American worker pay. Hell, I would strongly object even to "H1-B workers make 95% the wages of American workers" because I believe it is actually closer than that. Furthermore, if we as a country don't care about investing in education, we can't then throw a tantrum as a country when the countries that DO invest in education are rewarded for it by having their workers hired here.
- enraged_camel 14y ago
  >>I would say that H1-B candidates pay is pretty much exactly the same as American worker pay. As an H1B worker, I can attest to this. In order to get an H1B, your company has to first prove to the Department of Labor that it is paying you at least the prevailing wage in your area for your profession. If the pay is less, the application is almost always denied. On the other hand, there are many expenses associated with hiring H1B workers. Hiring lawyers to deal with documentation costs a lot of money, and the overhead on HR to generate that documentation is immense. So on the whole, H1B workers cost companies more than their American counterparts. Companies just hire them because they cannot find any qualified Americans to fill those positions.
  - 13b9f227ecf0 14y ago
    This is the letter of the law but everyone knows it's a joke. There are very successful consulting firms that guide employers through the process of "documenting" that workers are not available at the "prevailing wage." They list jobs in unlikely print publications and devise ways to disqualify or discourage applicants.
    - enraged_camel 14y ago
      Every law has loopholes and can be worked around. But from what I've seen, these types of practices are about as common as "Cadillac Moms." In other words, they do exist, but their prevalence is grossly exaggerated by those who have a vested interest in keeping foreigners from "stealing" their jobs.
mjn 14y ago
A simpler system could just be to have an absolute salary floor rather than fiddling with prevailing wages. For example, a program that allows you to sponsor unlimited visas as long as you offer $100k+ salaries. That would also allocate more visas to areas where the unfilled jobs have the highest demand, as measured by the willingness of companies to pay significant amounts of money to fill the positions. An area of expertise that a company isn't willing to pay more than $100k to get is pretty much by definition of only limited value to the company— or they'd be willing to pay more in trying to fill it. The prevailing-wage approach somewhat strangely will prefer issuing a visa to a company that's paying $60k in an area with typically $60k salaries, over paying $140k in an area with typically $150k salaries, even though the latter person actually has expertise that is more in demand, measured in absolute terms.
pixelcort 14y ago
I'm currently in the process of getting permission to work in Japan. Apparently how their government does it is that they require my income to be at least the same as a Japanese national. 150% seems unfair, but a simple 100% or greater rule would probably suffice.

untog 14y ago

Any citation of "half the prevailing wage"? I've seen this cited time and time again, but with little evidence to back it up. I am an H1B holder and I know a number of others- we are all paid very well.

chime 14y ago
Being paid very well is different from being paid the market wages. Could you get a higher paying job with your credentials in your area doing similar work? /former H1B
- untog 14y ago
  I have done exactly that a number of times- I am on my third job in the US on my H1B visa, and am absolutely paid market rate for my time.
jellicle 14y ago
http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages http://www.cis.org/PayScale-H1BWages http://hothardware.com/News/Study-H1B-Visas-Lower-US-Programmer-Pay/ http://hothardware.com/News/Study-H1B-Visas-Lower-US-Program...
- untog 14y ago
  A "5-6% drop in wages" isn't "half", though, is it? And the CIS is an organisation that advocates reducing immigration[1]- excuse me if I take their report with a pinch of salt: Applications for 47 percent of H-1B computer programming workers were for wages below even the prevailing wage Note that they switched from "workers" to "applications" on that one. Applications with wages below the prevailing level are usually denied. It's little details like that which ruin any trust I might have in a report that is nearly ten years old. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies
  - pixelcort 14y ago
    Even further, if 47% were wages below, that means 53% were for above, right? Of course, we don't know the distribution, but at a glance that means that more applications were for above the prevailing wage.

ryguytilidie 14y ago

When you say "half the prevailing wage" where are you getting that figure? I've hired people for Facebook, Google and many startups around SF and I can say with 100% certainty that you aren't even close. I would say that H1-B candidates pay is pretty much exactly the same as American worker pay. Hell, I would strongly object even to "H1-B workers make 95% the wages of American workers" because I believe it is actually closer than that. Furthermore, if we as a country don't care about investing in education, we can't then throw a tantrum as a country when the countries that DO invest in education are rewarded for it by having their workers hired here.

enraged_camel 14y ago
>>I would say that H1-B candidates pay is pretty much exactly the same as American worker pay. As an H1B worker, I can attest to this. In order to get an H1B, your company has to first prove to the Department of Labor that it is paying you at least the prevailing wage in your area for your profession. If the pay is less, the application is almost always denied. On the other hand, there are many expenses associated with hiring H1B workers. Hiring lawyers to deal with documentation costs a lot of money, and the overhead on HR to generate that documentation is immense. So on the whole, H1B workers cost companies more than their American counterparts. Companies just hire them because they cannot find any qualified Americans to fill those positions.
- 13b9f227ecf0 14y ago
  This is the letter of the law but everyone knows it's a joke. There are very successful consulting firms that guide employers through the process of "documenting" that workers are not available at the "prevailing wage." They list jobs in unlikely print publications and devise ways to disqualify or discourage applicants.
  - enraged_camel 14y ago
    Every law has loopholes and can be worked around. But from what I've seen, these types of practices are about as common as "Cadillac Moms." In other words, they do exist, but their prevalence is grossly exaggerated by those who have a vested interest in keeping foreigners from "stealing" their jobs.

mjn 14y ago

A simpler system could just be to have an absolute salary floor rather than fiddling with prevailing wages. For example, a program that allows you to sponsor unlimited visas as long as you offer $100k+ salaries. That would also allocate more visas to areas where the unfilled jobs have the highest demand, as measured by the willingness of companies to pay significant amounts of money to fill the positions. An area of expertise that a company isn't willing to pay more than $100k to get is pretty much by definition of only limited value to the company— or they'd be willing to pay more in trying to fill it. The prevailing-wage approach somewhat strangely will prefer issuing a visa to a company that's paying $60k in an area with typically $60k salaries, over paying $140k in an area with typically $150k salaries, even though the latter person actually has expertise that is more in demand, measured in absolute terms.

pixelcort 14y ago

I'm currently in the process of getting permission to work in Japan. Apparently how their government does it is that they require my income to be at least the same as a Japanese national. 150% seems unfair, but a simple 100% or greater rule would probably suffice.