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If your parents are doctors, I will gladly admit you probably know more about this than I do. So it would be silly for me to try to contest everything you wrote

by nilkn 14y ago

If your parents are doctors, I will gladly admit you probably know more about this than I do. So it would be silly for me to try to contest everything you wrote. However, I do have a few points: > it is expensive as hell It is incredibly expensive, but there are a few points to make here: * $150-200k are the minimum salaries for doctors in many areas. Certain specialists can make $300-450k anywhere in the country. I'm sure a select few make far more even than that, but then again a select few software developers are billionaires, so perhaps we'd best steer the discussion away from the best of the best here, otherwise it just gets silly. * There are army scholarships which eliminate the debt entirely. The catch is you have to work as an army doctor for several years after residency, and the pay there is less than civilian doctors make (although still a lot, even in cheap areas). * Let's say a medical student goes into $300k of debt (which is an overestimate for most cases). The difference in cost between a nice house in San Francisco and a nice house in a small town is far more than $300k. So in a long run, the doctor who chooses to work in a small town can still come out on top--and with a greater salary as well once the debt is paid off. > My parents, who are in their late 50s and early 60s, still work 12 hours a day on a regular basis, and have to consume entire journals/periodicals and travel for international conferences just to stay on top of new things. It would seem to me that this is not much different from many lesser paying jobs in the software industry, even (in fact, especially) in hot spots like Silicon Valley. > software is much less location-dependent, since you can work remotely That is the hope, anyway.

MatthewPhillips 14y ago
You can make good money as a developer anywhere in the U.S. What you'll run into outside of the tech hubs is that it's much harder to find interesting work, but it does exist. There are a lot of professions that pay much better than writing software, that is clear, despite our massive egos we must admit that (unless you work for one of the few tech companies that can pay exorbitantly, but usually then you are sacrificing the rest of your life). If you want to make $300k+ your best bet is to be a really good salesperson. It probably has the best ratio of low education costs / high potential salary.
- 456712 14y ago
  It exists all over the place. Small and medium businesses all over the country use old legacy systems that need to be upgraded and maintained. The hourly rates are insane for this kind of work, because it's work no one else wants to do. I had a friend who made an incredible living for himself just maintaining old programs written in COBOL, or re-writing small custom applications in Python or some other modern language so they could upgrade their OS. Everyone wants the "cool" job building websites and consumer facing apps in Rails and Node, and so they all compete for those $120k developer jobs here in San Francisco. No one is competing to add a new input line to an old COBOL program at a factory outside of Detroit that actually makes something. San Francisco and New York are where people to go to write software for the internet, and internet connected things, but most software running today that powers small industry and manufacturing, at least in the US, is old and disconnected. Maybe they manufacture soap or water bottles, who knows. Pretty much any small company that has "Since 19xx" anywhere near their logo is probably in need of help somewhere. I used to work in an industrial park with no less than two dozen of these kinds of companies. Not once did a software engineer, or firm, or anyone drop in, and yet I know that pretty much every business there had an aging system in need if upgrades or repair. Some move to turnkey solutions, but most need something a little custom because they have custom machinery somewhere in the building.
enraged_camel 14y ago
Doctors don't start out with $150-200k. Remember that they have to go through residency first, during which they make $40-60k. Which may sound decent, but when you realize they have to work 80+ hours AND with a ton of debt, it's actually pretty dismal. Even after that though, they make around 125-175k. Most doctors do not start making over 200k until ten or more years of practice. And again, that's with around 1500-1900 hours per year, which is considerably more than most software engineers.
- bartonfink 14y ago
  1500-1900 hours per year is considerably more than most software engineers? Are you sure you haven't miscalculated somewhere along the way to derive that? Assuming we're talking about the US, I just don't see how that assertion can hold water. 2000 hours per year is a widely-held rule of thumb for "full time" employment - 40 hours a week * 50 work weeks per year. 1500 hours means you average a 30 hour work week or take a tremendous amount of vacation - neither of which sound anything like the employment situations for "most software engineers."
  - enraged_camel 14y ago
    Sorry, I fat-fingered it. I meant 2500-2900 hours per year.
    - pc86 14y ago
      I don't want to nit pick, but even 2500 hours a year is only 52-53 hours a week with 4 weeks off for vacation every year. Use the 2900 figure and you're still just barely over 60 with a month for vacation. Not a bad deal to make ~4x the median US salary. I understand what you're saying though. It's a lot "easier" to go to school for four years, make $90-120k and have $0-40k in student debt than it is to go to school for a decade, make $125-175k and have $80-150k in student debt. But truthfully, when you have that kind of buying power you can live like a student for just two more years and completely pay off your debt (or very close to it). Software developers usually don't have that kind of buying power. Outside of the Valley and NYC an entry-level developer may only make $30k a year. Even a $200-300/mo student loan payment at that income is tight.

by nilkn 14y ago

MatthewPhillips 14y ago

You can make good money as a developer anywhere in the U.S. What you'll run into outside of the tech hubs is that it's much harder to find interesting work, but it does exist. There are a lot of professions that pay much better than writing software, that is clear, despite our massive egos we must admit that (unless you work for one of the few tech companies that can pay exorbitantly, but usually then you are sacrificing the rest of your life). If you want to make $300k+ your best bet is to be a really good salesperson. It probably has the best ratio of low education costs / high potential salary.

456712 14y ago
It exists all over the place. Small and medium businesses all over the country use old legacy systems that need to be upgraded and maintained. The hourly rates are insane for this kind of work, because it's work no one else wants to do. I had a friend who made an incredible living for himself just maintaining old programs written in COBOL, or re-writing small custom applications in Python or some other modern language so they could upgrade their OS. Everyone wants the "cool" job building websites and consumer facing apps in Rails and Node, and so they all compete for those $120k developer jobs here in San Francisco. No one is competing to add a new input line to an old COBOL program at a factory outside of Detroit that actually makes something. San Francisco and New York are where people to go to write software for the internet, and internet connected things, but most software running today that powers small industry and manufacturing, at least in the US, is old and disconnected. Maybe they manufacture soap or water bottles, who knows. Pretty much any small company that has "Since 19xx" anywhere near their logo is probably in need of help somewhere. I used to work in an industrial park with no less than two dozen of these kinds of companies. Not once did a software engineer, or firm, or anyone drop in, and yet I know that pretty much every business there had an aging system in need if upgrades or repair. Some move to turnkey solutions, but most need something a little custom because they have custom machinery somewhere in the building.

enraged_camel 14y ago

Doctors don't start out with $150-200k. Remember that they have to go through residency first, during which they make $40-60k. Which may sound decent, but when you realize they have to work 80+ hours AND with a ton of debt, it's actually pretty dismal. Even after that though, they make around 125-175k. Most doctors do not start making over 200k until ten or more years of practice. And again, that's with around 1500-1900 hours per year, which is considerably more than most software engineers.

bartonfink 14y ago
1500-1900 hours per year is considerably more than most software engineers? Are you sure you haven't miscalculated somewhere along the way to derive that? Assuming we're talking about the US, I just don't see how that assertion can hold water. 2000 hours per year is a widely-held rule of thumb for "full time" employment - 40 hours a week * 50 work weeks per year. 1500 hours means you average a 30 hour work week or take a tremendous amount of vacation - neither of which sound anything like the employment situations for "most software engineers."
- enraged_camel 14y ago
  Sorry, I fat-fingered it. I meant 2500-2900 hours per year.
  - pc86 14y ago
    I don't want to nit pick, but even 2500 hours a year is only 52-53 hours a week with 4 weeks off for vacation every year. Use the 2900 figure and you're still just barely over 60 with a month for vacation. Not a bad deal to make ~4x the median US salary. I understand what you're saying though. It's a lot "easier" to go to school for four years, make $90-120k and have $0-40k in student debt than it is to go to school for a decade, make $125-175k and have $80-150k in student debt. But truthfully, when you have that kind of buying power you can live like a student for just two more years and completely pay off your debt (or very close to it). Software developers usually don't have that kind of buying power. Outside of the Valley and NYC an entry-level developer may only make $30k a year. Even a $200-300/mo student loan payment at that income is tight.