3 ms·

You must be missing the weekly blog entries by women on harassment in the workplace and at industry functions that get posted and subsequently flagged and respo

by mnicole 14y ago

You must be missing the weekly blog entries by women on harassment in the workplace and at industry functions that get posted and subsequently flagged and responded to with "Not this again," and "Why is this on Hacker News?" I initially wrote "avoiding" but it makes sense you'd miss them since they hardly ever get on the front page (despite how often people complain they do). You must also gloss over all of the threads relating to women-only events and women-centric ventures wherein the comments boil down to "Why do women need this? How is actively excluding themselves going to help us as a whole?" and "Great, now they'll feel like even specialer snowflakes." When Github announced that they were doing on-site talks by women for women, the comments broke out in fears that men were not allowed to show up and how bothersome this "trend" was and how disappointed they would be in Github for allowing such. And your point that the exclusion is purely psychological is unfortunate. I was oblivious to gender issues until I started experiencing them for myself. The outright discrimination was degrading and unexpected and if I hadn't started building websites because of the love of the craft and that I started doing so in a community dominated by women, I probably would have reconsidered my life's path right then and there. Lastly, while I understand you mean well by your other comments (re: men and women really being no different), I don't think a man can speak on behalf of any female-identifying persons' "everyday reality."

Mz 14y ago
He is not above hounding, ugly, unwarranted personal attacks and so on himself. So you are probably mostly wasting your time to argue with him.
- mnicole 14y ago
  I'm particularly enjoying how ignorance of the state of the industry leads to victim-blaming. Telling women who are continuing to deal with these issues in their "everyday realities" that it's all in their heads is the exact attitude that is perpetuating this mess.
  - Mz 14y ago
    Some men honestly don't see it. I have upvoted a lot of your remarks here and I hope it opens some eyes, but I mostly prefer a less confrontational path forward. (Not saying you should.) Just saying that if you think you will change this person's mind, you are likely mistaken. If that is not your goal, hey, you go girl. Enjoy.
    - lutusp 14y ago
      > Some men honestly don't see it. It's not a question of not seeing it, it's a question of dwelling on it, allowing it to degrade one's effectiveness. You need to realize that men face the same kinds of erosive, degrading comments from their peers, but they (at least successful men) process them differently -- they ignore all but the constructive suggestions. And so do successful women.
      - wonderzombie 14y ago
        In other words, "have you tried being a man?" More constructively: your advice is not really actionable if your premise is that one must have the same emotions as you and think the way you do. And people can't just rewire their brains because a man on the Internet says their problems are all in their head.
        lutusp 14y ago
        > In other words, "have you tried being a man?" I sometimes wonder why people are so desperate to craft a position that the other person has never taken. Want to constructively discuss issues? Limit yourself to thing the other person has actually said. My statement is that men have chosen a more effective way to deal with erosive influences, and it's a behavior that women can and should adopt -- not by imitating men, but by adopting a more effective approach to negative influences. There's no gender dimension to it. If I had said that gerbils have a more effective adaptation, would you have the right to ask, "So you want everyone to become a gerbil?" > And people can't just rewire their brains because a man on the Internet says their problems are all in their head. You need to stop inventing imaginary positions for other people. I never said or implied what you claim. My remarks address, not the original influences, but constructive ways to deal with them. > In other words, "have you tried being a man?" Have you tried being a person?
lutusp 14y ago
> You must also gloss over all of the threads relating to women-only events and women-centric ventures wherein the comments boil down to "Why do women need this? How is actively excluding themselves going to help us as a whole?" Guess what? Men don't possess this kind of self-doubt. They don't start arguments, they start companies. All evidence says that women could easily do as well or better, if they choose. > I don't think a man can speak on behalf of any female-identifying persons' "everyday reality." After you get done building the make-believe wall between men and women you clearly intend to build and defend, start your own company. Let men experience a glass ceiling for a change. Or are you satisfied to complain about men without actually doing anything about it? In all seriousness, a strategy of blaming men is a non-starter. It worked when women had no vote and no rights, but those days are long past. The "it's all the fault of men" meme has expired -- apart from being out of date, it lacks credibility.

by mnicole 14y ago

Mz 14y ago

He is not above hounding, ugly, unwarranted personal attacks and so on himself. So you are probably mostly wasting your time to argue with him.

mnicole 14y ago
I'm particularly enjoying how ignorance of the state of the industry leads to victim-blaming. Telling women who are continuing to deal with these issues in their "everyday realities" that it's all in their heads is the exact attitude that is perpetuating this mess.
- Mz 14y ago
  Some men honestly don't see it. I have upvoted a lot of your remarks here and I hope it opens some eyes, but I mostly prefer a less confrontational path forward. (Not saying you should.) Just saying that if you think you will change this person's mind, you are likely mistaken. If that is not your goal, hey, you go girl. Enjoy.
  - lutusp 14y ago
    > Some men honestly don't see it. It's not a question of not seeing it, it's a question of dwelling on it, allowing it to degrade one's effectiveness. You need to realize that men face the same kinds of erosive, degrading comments from their peers, but they (at least successful men) process them differently -- they ignore all but the constructive suggestions. And so do successful women.
    - wonderzombie 14y ago
      In other words, "have you tried being a man?" More constructively: your advice is not really actionable if your premise is that one must have the same emotions as you and think the way you do. And people can't just rewire their brains because a man on the Internet says their problems are all in their head.
      - lutusp 14y ago
        > In other words, "have you tried being a man?" I sometimes wonder why people are so desperate to craft a position that the other person has never taken. Want to constructively discuss issues? Limit yourself to thing the other person has actually said. My statement is that men have chosen a more effective way to deal with erosive influences, and it's a behavior that women can and should adopt -- not by imitating men, but by adopting a more effective approach to negative influences. There's no gender dimension to it. If I had said that gerbils have a more effective adaptation, would you have the right to ask, "So you want everyone to become a gerbil?" > And people can't just rewire their brains because a man on the Internet says their problems are all in their head. You need to stop inventing imaginary positions for other people. I never said or implied what you claim. My remarks address, not the original influences, but constructive ways to deal with them. > In other words, "have you tried being a man?" Have you tried being a person?

lutusp 14y ago

> You must also gloss over all of the threads relating to women-only events and women-centric ventures wherein the comments boil down to "Why do women need this? How is actively excluding themselves going to help us as a whole?" Guess what? Men don't possess this kind of self-doubt. They don't start arguments, they start companies. All evidence says that women could easily do as well or better, if they choose. > I don't think a man can speak on behalf of any female-identifying persons' "everyday reality." After you get done building the make-believe wall between men and women you clearly intend to build and defend, start your own company. Let men experience a glass ceiling for a change. Or are you satisfied to complain about men without actually doing anything about it? In all seriousness, a strategy of blaming men is a non-starter. It worked when women had no vote and no rights, but those days are long past. The "it's all the fault of men" meme has expired -- apart from being out of date, it lacks credibility.