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Detailed post, but it doesn't seem to address two things. 1. The WSJ report noted that Apple was concerned that " AppGratis was pushing a business model that a

by credo 14y ago

Detailed post, but it doesn't seem to address two things. 1. The WSJ report noted that Apple was concerned that " AppGratis was pushing a business model that appeared to favor developers with the financial means to pay for exposure." Simon hasn't addressed this point. Do they make paid recommendations ? If they do make app-recommendations based on payments, it makes a lot of sense for Apple to ban them. As an iOS (and Android) developer, I personally think that paid-recommendations are bad for the ecosystem (though I'm sure that some giant shops paying for recommendations may disagree). At the least, I think users of AppGratis should be told if the recommendations are "paid for". 2. Simon's discussion of rule 5.6 doesn't really address the problem. Rule 5.6 says "Apps cannot use Push Notifications to send advertising, promotions, or direct marketing of any kind." Simon counters by saying that they only send one notification per day and that users opt-in. However, neither claim refutes the fact that they''re violating rule 5.6. All iOS push-notifications are opt-in anyway. Rule 5.6 says 'no advertisement , no promotions,.... no direct marketing'. It doesn't make exceptions for apps that only send one notification per day. Now Simon could argue that Rule 5.6 is bad for the user and that push-notification-advertisements/promotions are good. That may be a debatable point. However, it is clear that his claims do nothing to counter the fact that AppGratis violates Rule 5.6 (as it is written)

therandomguy 14y ago
I think Simon's point regarding #2 above is that the push notification is just letting the user know about an event ("deal is ready"). It is not pushing advertising or promotion. I wonder if it would be in violation of the rule if the app sent push notification stating, "It's noon. You know what to do!". Of course, this is not in the spirit of the rule...
pgrote 14y ago
Does 5.6 apply to all apps? Is it a black and white issue? For instance, the Southwest Airline app, Ding, sends me push notifications when there are sales.
- ryanSrich 14y ago
  Yeah I'd like this answered. I have several apps that advertise through push notifications, EA is one of them.
- spontaneus 14y ago
  And, what about Groupon and Living Social? All they do is promote a different business every day... If Apple is going to make rules like this, they need to be consistant on how they enforce it.
  - mbetter 14y ago
    Why do they need to be consistent?
    - pgrote 14y ago
      That is a very good question. Their rules, their interpretation. I could see that line of thought. I guess it would help me as a consumer from the standpoint of any confusion. I don't develop IOS apps, so I can't speak to the fairness of the process. I am an IOS user and it would irritate me if an app I like, such as Southwest's, is pulled all of the sudden for a rule that wasn't enforced consistently.
    - ScottBurson 14y ago
      They are competing against Android for developers.
    - spontaneus 14y ago
      For a lot of reasons. First, if I'm spending time creating an app, it would be nice to know with 100% certainty that it will be accepted in the app store. Second, it's unfair if competitors don't have to run by the same set of rules. Third, because it's extremely confusing and could turn developers off from creating on their platform.
- jasonjei 14y ago
  If the user consents to receiving special deals or time limited sale announcements, I don't see the harm. But Apple's TOS seems at best capricious and unevenly applied. I'd like to see them pull Southwest or another popular brand who offers announcements of sales. By that token, they might as well pull Twitter, Mail, and other apps, since they all have the potential for pushing advertisements of time limited sales.
lleims 14y ago
I've heard from one investor in Spain who was recently pitched by an AppGratis competitor that, depending on the client, AppGratis might charge big companies between $12/14K a day to promote their apps. Take it with a grain of salt as this information comes from one of their competitors. But I wouldn't be totally surprised if they charge that amount.
- muzzamike 14y ago
  They have even higher rates for free apps with in-app purchases.n. We were told $3 per install or $100k flat rate for 1 day. This was roughly a month and a half ago. Unfortunately that didn't fit out budget.
  - coderholic 14y ago
    Yeah I was also quoted a flat fee of $100k, around a couple of weeks ago.
espadagroup 14y ago
Pay for exposure already exists within the app store. Large companies pay around $10-$20K a day depending on the category on crap ad networks (won't name them) that incentivize the users to download the companies app in order to "get to the next level" or something like that. The downloads are incredibly cheap and you get thousands and thousands of them. The app store ranking is almost entirely based on download velocity, so your ranking goes up. Once you get in the top 12ish the organic downloads start pouring in just from being near the top. The value per user of those organic users is so high that it more than off sets the cost for the crap/incentivized downloads. Almost everyone who can do this, does this.
- spontaneus 14y ago
  Facebook just recently started doing this as well. You can now pay to get your app promoted in people's news feed.
  - espadagroup 14y ago
    Yeah, though that's still controlled by Facebook, since you're actually paying them rather than some third party.
  - potatolicious 14y ago
    This isn't quite the same thing. Facebook is letting people advertise apps on news feeds, they're not forcing downloads via a game mechanism. What GP is talking about is the much sketchier model of blocking (or greatly slowing down) access to an app unless the user goes and downloads an affiliated app. This is artificial download inflation by bending the user over a barrel, not advertising.
    - physcab 14y ago
      I don't think Apple will approve an app that blocks a user or slows them down unless they install a 3rd party app. What usually happens is an advert pops up during normal app usage, the user has to exit or let the ad go away, then they can continue using. It's a normal advertisement. Its not unlike when the NYTimes does a full site takeover for some Buick commercial and you have to minimize the ad before you can continue reading. But going out and buying a Buick certainly doesn't decrease your access time to NYTimes articles.
gojomo 14y ago
Re (1): Well-disclosed paid-promotion should be fine: Apple does it (iAds), Google does it (AdWords). If that's the issue it should be fixable. Re (2) If a notification that "today's [no-additional-cost] deal has arrived!" counts as "advertising, promotion, or direct marketing", then it seems every other push that aims to improve app usage, by announcing new content or features, would also be verboten. Is that what Apple is saying? If so, a lot of other apps are going to have to go...
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  That sounds exactly like direct advertising, promotion or direct marketing. Mentioning you have a new feature isn't any of those things. Advertising a daily offer? That's definitely one or all of them,
  - gojomo 14y ago
    When I get a notification via Google Plus app, driving me to their app because there's something that I've expressed interest in, is that "advertising, promotion, or direct marketing"? Or from a Facebook app? Or any game informing me it's my turn? Yes, they drive app use, and perhaps even later revenues, but in a way that's in harmony with my intent when installing the app and expectations. It's like "you've got mail (that you requested)". You can squint and call it marketing, but then almost every notification that increases use of a profitable app is also marketing.
- idunno246 14y ago
  Yes. From the developer agreement(which is more explicit than the submission guidelines), pretty much every app violates this: 2.2 You may not use the APN or Local Notifications for the purposes of advertising, product promotion, or direct marketing of any kind (e.g., up-selling, cross-selling, etc.), including, but not limited to, sending any messages to promote the use of Your Application or advertise the availability of new features or versions.
  - gojomo 14y ago
    Thanks for that pointer. I'm surprise that highlighting new versions or existing features is prohibited. I've received quite a few such messages from major apps -- Zynga, Facebook, other leading games. Are they all being kicked out of the App Store?
jicea 14y ago
Hi, I'm one of the developer of Meon https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/meon/id400274934?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/meon/id400274934?mt=8 . We have been promoted twice by App Gratis, each time we've never paid anything. The App Gratis campaign generated more than 400K downloads and push us in the first place in the French App Store (for a few days). Of course App Gratis use iTunes affiliation to get revenues, but they didn't charge us for anything.
- daemon13 14y ago
  Re >> Of course App Gratis use iTunes affiliation to get revenues, but they didn't charge us for anything. Can you please elaborate on this? Do you mean that Apply is paying some kind of affiliate fee? And what happens if the app is free of charge (FOC)?
  - hboon 14y ago
    See http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/ http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/ as well as http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/resources/documentation/frequently-asked-questions.html http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/resources/documentati... iTunes affiliates get a cut of 5% of all purchases within 72 hours, not just for the originating app (or media).
    - simonholroyd 14y ago
      > For zero dollar sales of apps, you will not see any transactions reported. Aren't most of the apps that AppGratis links to discounted to free for the day. Apple doesn't pay commission on free downloads, right?
      - hboon 14y ago
        They don't. But let's say you click and buy another app or IAP within that 72 hour window, the affiliate gets a cut.
  - jicea 14y ago
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
2pasc 14y ago
Re: Rule 5.6. Aren't all commerce apps - especially Flash Sales apps violating Rule 5.6? I could get an app every day from Fab, Rue La La, Threadflip, Gilt, and others, and every week from Postmates, Instacart, etc... Rule 5.6 seems crazy to me, unless I have misunderstood something. What are the apps that are using push notifications for other reasons than what Rule 5.6 prevents? Communications apps? If that's the case, then Urban Airship needs to pivot very fast, because their business is built on something forbidden!
rurounijones 14y ago
Even if everything you say above is true. None of these rules are brand new and AppGratis had been approved by Apple staff time and time again and worked with the company when there were problems. The fact a new person can come along and totally pull the rug out should highlight just how wildly inconsistent the approval system is.
jjellyy 14y ago
+1 AppGratis is in violation of the TOS and are rightfully upset, but I think they were banned for good reasons. I care more about the health of the app store ecosystem than one company. They claim to promote great free apps but in reality is spamming all their users with paid promotions to the highest bidder.
- daemon13 14y ago
  Can you please elaborate on this? Do you mean that Apply is paying some kind of affiliate fee? And what happens if the app is free of charge (FOC)? Edit: sorry, mixed the thread

by credo 14y ago

therandomguy 14y ago

I think Simon's point regarding #2 above is that the push notification is just letting the user know about an event ("deal is ready"). It is not pushing advertising or promotion. I wonder if it would be in violation of the rule if the app sent push notification stating, "It's noon. You know what to do!". Of course, this is not in the spirit of the rule...

pgrote 14y ago

Does 5.6 apply to all apps? Is it a black and white issue? For instance, the Southwest Airline app, Ding, sends me push notifications when there are sales.

ryanSrich 14y ago
Yeah I'd like this answered. I have several apps that advertise through push notifications, EA is one of them.
spontaneus 14y ago
And, what about Groupon and Living Social? All they do is promote a different business every day... If Apple is going to make rules like this, they need to be consistant on how they enforce it.
- mbetter 14y ago
  Why do they need to be consistent?
  - pgrote 14y ago
    That is a very good question. Their rules, their interpretation. I could see that line of thought. I guess it would help me as a consumer from the standpoint of any confusion. I don't develop IOS apps, so I can't speak to the fairness of the process. I am an IOS user and it would irritate me if an app I like, such as Southwest's, is pulled all of the sudden for a rule that wasn't enforced consistently.
  - ScottBurson 14y ago
    They are competing against Android for developers.
  - spontaneus 14y ago
    For a lot of reasons. First, if I'm spending time creating an app, it would be nice to know with 100% certainty that it will be accepted in the app store. Second, it's unfair if competitors don't have to run by the same set of rules. Third, because it's extremely confusing and could turn developers off from creating on their platform.
jasonjei 14y ago
If the user consents to receiving special deals or time limited sale announcements, I don't see the harm. But Apple's TOS seems at best capricious and unevenly applied. I'd like to see them pull Southwest or another popular brand who offers announcements of sales. By that token, they might as well pull Twitter, Mail, and other apps, since they all have the potential for pushing advertisements of time limited sales.

lleims 14y ago

I've heard from one investor in Spain who was recently pitched by an AppGratis competitor that, depending on the client, AppGratis might charge big companies between $12/14K a day to promote their apps. Take it with a grain of salt as this information comes from one of their competitors. But I wouldn't be totally surprised if they charge that amount.

muzzamike 14y ago
They have even higher rates for free apps with in-app purchases.n. We were told $3 per install or $100k flat rate for 1 day. This was roughly a month and a half ago. Unfortunately that didn't fit out budget.
- coderholic 14y ago
  Yeah I was also quoted a flat fee of $100k, around a couple of weeks ago.

espadagroup 14y ago

Pay for exposure already exists within the app store. Large companies pay around $10-$20K a day depending on the category on crap ad networks (won't name them) that incentivize the users to download the companies app in order to "get to the next level" or something like that. The downloads are incredibly cheap and you get thousands and thousands of them. The app store ranking is almost entirely based on download velocity, so your ranking goes up. Once you get in the top 12ish the organic downloads start pouring in just from being near the top. The value per user of those organic users is so high that it more than off sets the cost for the crap/incentivized downloads. Almost everyone who can do this, does this.

spontaneus 14y ago
Facebook just recently started doing this as well. You can now pay to get your app promoted in people's news feed.
- espadagroup 14y ago
  Yeah, though that's still controlled by Facebook, since you're actually paying them rather than some third party.
- potatolicious 14y ago
  This isn't quite the same thing. Facebook is letting people advertise apps on news feeds, they're not forcing downloads via a game mechanism. What GP is talking about is the much sketchier model of blocking (or greatly slowing down) access to an app unless the user goes and downloads an affiliated app. This is artificial download inflation by bending the user over a barrel, not advertising.
  - physcab 14y ago
    I don't think Apple will approve an app that blocks a user or slows them down unless they install a 3rd party app. What usually happens is an advert pops up during normal app usage, the user has to exit or let the ad go away, then they can continue using. It's a normal advertisement. Its not unlike when the NYTimes does a full site takeover for some Buick commercial and you have to minimize the ad before you can continue reading. But going out and buying a Buick certainly doesn't decrease your access time to NYTimes articles.

gojomo 14y ago

Re (1): Well-disclosed paid-promotion should be fine: Apple does it (iAds), Google does it (AdWords). If that's the issue it should be fixable. Re (2) If a notification that "today's [no-additional-cost] deal has arrived!" counts as "advertising, promotion, or direct marketing", then it seems every other push that aims to improve app usage, by announcing new content or features, would also be verboten. Is that what Apple is saying? If so, a lot of other apps are going to have to go...

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
That sounds exactly like direct advertising, promotion or direct marketing. Mentioning you have a new feature isn't any of those things. Advertising a daily offer? That's definitely one or all of them,
- gojomo 14y ago
  When I get a notification via Google Plus app, driving me to their app because there's something that I've expressed interest in, is that "advertising, promotion, or direct marketing"? Or from a Facebook app? Or any game informing me it's my turn? Yes, they drive app use, and perhaps even later revenues, but in a way that's in harmony with my intent when installing the app and expectations. It's like "you've got mail (that you requested)". You can squint and call it marketing, but then almost every notification that increases use of a profitable app is also marketing.
idunno246 14y ago
Yes. From the developer agreement(which is more explicit than the submission guidelines), pretty much every app violates this: 2.2 You may not use the APN or Local Notifications for the purposes of advertising, product promotion, or direct marketing of any kind (e.g., up-selling, cross-selling, etc.), including, but not limited to, sending any messages to promote the use of Your Application or advertise the availability of new features or versions.
- gojomo 14y ago
  Thanks for that pointer. I'm surprise that highlighting new versions or existing features is prohibited. I've received quite a few such messages from major apps -- Zynga, Facebook, other leading games. Are they all being kicked out of the App Store?

jicea 14y ago

Hi, I'm one of the developer of Meon https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/meon/id400274934?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/meon/id400274934?mt=8 . We have been promoted twice by App Gratis, each time we've never paid anything. The App Gratis campaign generated more than 400K downloads and push us in the first place in the French App Store (for a few days). Of course App Gratis use iTunes affiliation to get revenues, but they didn't charge us for anything.

daemon13 14y ago
Re >> Of course App Gratis use iTunes affiliation to get revenues, but they didn't charge us for anything. Can you please elaborate on this? Do you mean that Apply is paying some kind of affiliate fee? And what happens if the app is free of charge (FOC)?
- hboon 14y ago
  See http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/ http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/ as well as http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/resources/documentation/frequently-asked-questions.html http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/resources/documentati... iTunes affiliates get a cut of 5% of all purchases within 72 hours, not just for the originating app (or media).
  - simonholroyd 14y ago
    > For zero dollar sales of apps, you will not see any transactions reported. Aren't most of the apps that AppGratis links to discounted to free for the day. Apple doesn't pay commission on free downloads, right?
    - hboon 14y ago
      They don't. But let's say you click and buy another app or IAP within that 72 hour window, the affiliate gets a cut.
- jicea 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

2pasc 14y ago

Re: Rule 5.6. Aren't all commerce apps - especially Flash Sales apps violating Rule 5.6? I could get an app every day from Fab, Rue La La, Threadflip, Gilt, and others, and every week from Postmates, Instacart, etc... Rule 5.6 seems crazy to me, unless I have misunderstood something. What are the apps that are using push notifications for other reasons than what Rule 5.6 prevents? Communications apps? If that's the case, then Urban Airship needs to pivot very fast, because their business is built on something forbidden!

rurounijones 14y ago

Even if everything you say above is true. None of these rules are brand new and AppGratis had been approved by Apple staff time and time again and worked with the company when there were problems. The fact a new person can come along and totally pull the rug out should highlight just how wildly inconsistent the approval system is.

jjellyy 14y ago

+1 AppGratis is in violation of the TOS and are rightfully upset, but I think they were banned for good reasons. I care more about the health of the app store ecosystem than one company. They claim to promote great free apps but in reality is spamming all their users with paid promotions to the highest bidder.

daemon13 14y ago
Can you please elaborate on this? Do you mean that Apply is paying some kind of affiliate fee? And what happens if the app is free of charge (FOC)? Edit: sorry, mixed the thread