4 ms·

God damn it. After the recent MySQL/OpenOffice/Java and Google Reader fiascos, my lab had a huge internal debate about whether to continue using Mendeley or cho

by xaa 14y ago

God damn it. After the recent MySQL/OpenOffice/Java and Google Reader fiascos, my lab had a huge internal debate about whether to continue using Mendeley or choose a FLOSS alternative that wouldn't bite us later. Obviously we miscalculated. I don't blame the Mendeley team -- too much -- since $100M is a lot of money. Although they shouldn't try to pretend that this isn't a complete sellout. The fault really lies in the community's willingness to fall over and over for these shiny but not-quite-free alternatives. Two years ago, I would have said that Stallman is a nut; now, I think he's quite right.

SkyMarshal 14y ago
>my lab had a huge internal debate about whether to continue using Mendeley or choose a FLOSS alternative that wouldn't bite us later. What alternatives did you consider?
- xaa 14y ago
  The finalists were I, Librarian, Zotero, or roll-our-own.
  - MrGunn 14y ago
    See, that's the thing. It's hard for open source projects to attract top caliber developers and build a critical mass of users. Firefox has done really well, AOSP has done well, but Mendeley and Zotero are really the only competitors in this space, and they're not exactly comparable. That said, this isn't a buy and bury situation. Mendeley is now very well positioned to dominate so there's no reason to worry, and anyways you can always take your data with you. FYI - I work for Mendeley.
    - simonster 14y ago
      I'm flattered to know that you think we're the only competitors in the space. However, given that you have several times as many full-time developers as we have part-time developers and my code was/is the basis for critical features in your product, I think you're really overstating the caliber of your developers. As for your "critical mass of users" that we supposedly lack, I suggest you consult Google Insights. While I don't know the specific details of your agreement with Elsevier that make you so "well positioned to dominate," I do know that your target market's principles are more closely aligned with ours than with yours, and that they aren't stupid. You can't really preach open access for years and then sell yourself to the OA movement's greatest enemy and expect that no one will notice. In any case, I welcome the competition, although I hope that in the future it comes in the form of shipped code and not more lies about the viability of free software. FYI - I'm a member of the Zotero core team, but I'm also a graduate student in neuroscience at MIT.
      - SkyMarshal 14y ago
        I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank you and your colleagues for Zotero. I use it for keeping track of anything that interests me that I might want to cite later in blog posts, emails, papers, whatever. Great tool. Thank you for making and sharing it.
Evbn 14y ago
"Two years ago"? Everyone's complete inability to remember anything is why Stallman hasn't gotten his point across in the past 30 years.
- nickpinkston 14y ago
  Or is it that Stallman's framing of his message (ie. moralistic) isn't memorable to most people?
- xaa 14y ago
  It isn't quite so simple -- usually you pay for the flexibility and freedom of FOSS with a significantly less polished UX. In an ideal world, everyone would pool their resources toward free software and all would benefit. In reality, it is like a multiplayer Prisoners' Dilemma: people who "defect" by using proprietary software are rewarded (in the short term) with a nicer UX, at the expense of those who "cooperate", and at their own long-term expense. There are other problems: FOSS (especially Linux) suffers from severe fragmentation, and I also question to what extent people are willing to develop software that is not fun for free. Anyway, I never "forgot" the excesses of, say, Y2K-era Microsoft. I have just been skeptical of the workability of FOSS. But I do think it is the ethical way to go.
  - jasonlotito 14y ago
    > I also question to what extent people are willing to develop software that is not fun for free. Pay them to develop the features you want rather than pay the cost of using proprietary software or closed systems. Everyone wins.
rsvidal 14y ago
We are going to continue with our current roadmap. We're going to provide more features, more content via integration with Scopus and ScienceDirect and we even have a rewritten iOS app coming out soon. More resources will allow us to provide the necessary attention on the various key features in mendeley. Like the open API that will continue to be open and provide access to our catalog (which is also being improved!). I don't think you've miscalculated. However, I'm obviously biased.

by xaa 14y ago

SkyMarshal 14y ago

>my lab had a huge internal debate about whether to continue using Mendeley or choose a FLOSS alternative that wouldn't bite us later. What alternatives did you consider?

xaa 14y ago
The finalists were I, Librarian, Zotero, or roll-our-own.
- MrGunn 14y ago
  See, that's the thing. It's hard for open source projects to attract top caliber developers and build a critical mass of users. Firefox has done really well, AOSP has done well, but Mendeley and Zotero are really the only competitors in this space, and they're not exactly comparable. That said, this isn't a buy and bury situation. Mendeley is now very well positioned to dominate so there's no reason to worry, and anyways you can always take your data with you. FYI - I work for Mendeley.
  - simonster 14y ago
    I'm flattered to know that you think we're the only competitors in the space. However, given that you have several times as many full-time developers as we have part-time developers and my code was/is the basis for critical features in your product, I think you're really overstating the caliber of your developers. As for your "critical mass of users" that we supposedly lack, I suggest you consult Google Insights. While I don't know the specific details of your agreement with Elsevier that make you so "well positioned to dominate," I do know that your target market's principles are more closely aligned with ours than with yours, and that they aren't stupid. You can't really preach open access for years and then sell yourself to the OA movement's greatest enemy and expect that no one will notice. In any case, I welcome the competition, although I hope that in the future it comes in the form of shipped code and not more lies about the viability of free software. FYI - I'm a member of the Zotero core team, but I'm also a graduate student in neuroscience at MIT.
    - SkyMarshal 14y ago
      I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank you and your colleagues for Zotero. I use it for keeping track of anything that interests me that I might want to cite later in blog posts, emails, papers, whatever. Great tool. Thank you for making and sharing it.

Evbn 14y ago

"Two years ago"? Everyone's complete inability to remember anything is why Stallman hasn't gotten his point across in the past 30 years.

nickpinkston 14y ago
Or is it that Stallman's framing of his message (ie. moralistic) isn't memorable to most people?
xaa 14y ago
It isn't quite so simple -- usually you pay for the flexibility and freedom of FOSS with a significantly less polished UX. In an ideal world, everyone would pool their resources toward free software and all would benefit. In reality, it is like a multiplayer Prisoners' Dilemma: people who "defect" by using proprietary software are rewarded (in the short term) with a nicer UX, at the expense of those who "cooperate", and at their own long-term expense. There are other problems: FOSS (especially Linux) suffers from severe fragmentation, and I also question to what extent people are willing to develop software that is not fun for free. Anyway, I never "forgot" the excesses of, say, Y2K-era Microsoft. I have just been skeptical of the workability of FOSS. But I do think it is the ethical way to go.
- jasonlotito 14y ago
  > I also question to what extent people are willing to develop software that is not fun for free. Pay them to develop the features you want rather than pay the cost of using proprietary software or closed systems. Everyone wins.

rsvidal 14y ago

We are going to continue with our current roadmap. We're going to provide more features, more content via integration with Scopus and ScienceDirect and we even have a rewritten iOS app coming out soon. More resources will allow us to provide the necessary attention on the various key features in mendeley. Like the open API that will continue to be open and provide access to our catalog (which is also being improved!). I don't think you've miscalculated. However, I'm obviously biased.