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I have a few problems with this article, namely the comparisons drawn between The Valley and Canada. I am currently a Canadian citizen, working in San Francisc

by vecinu 14y ago

I have a few problems with this article, namely the comparisons drawn between The Valley and Canada. I am currently a Canadian citizen, working in San Francisco at a company that moved from Vancouver many years ago. The author seems to be comparing the Bay Area to the entirety of Canada. Canada is not a small area, a city or a state. It is an entire 'continent' spanning multiple provinces with very different laws and dynamics. A startup in Waterloo, Ontario targeted towards engineering may fare better than one founded in Vancouver. Secondly, he is mentioning his connections in the Bay Area that have helped him succeed in Canada. First he is arguing FOR founding a startup in Canada but then admits that most of his barriers to entry were lifted with help from the valley. There is a difference when you're starting fresh in Waterloo without any outside help. I think what the author should have done is draw a parallel between The Valley and somewhere in Canada (Waterloo, Vancouver, Montreal, etc...). One may not be better than the other but perhaps working WITH The Valley can help get your startup off the ground elsewhere. I would personally love to work for a startup back home in Toronto and perhaps one day found my own but I don't see the same enthusiasm towards tech and startup in Toronto that I see here in The Valley.

dquail 14y ago
* Disclaimer - I wrote this post. Totally agree, Canada is incredibly diverse so this article is a bit overgeneralizing. Starting in Waterloo / Toronto / Vancouver / is night and day to Winnipeg (nothing against winnipeg). The main take away is to be wary of the hype in the valley. That pervades the culture. Everyone from investors to your family fill you up with hype. You don't get that in Canada. You've gotta fight harder. That, in my opinion, isn't a bad thing. You can go much further on a dumb idea in the valley. *and yes I know that some of the best startups were once dumb ideas. But I don't believe the "valley" made them succeed. I think there's more companies that die because of false positives than companies that succeed in spite of not having them. And yes. I readily admit that you need connections in the valley. I wouldn't be starting in Canada if I didn't already have a killer bay area network. BTW. I toured Toronto not that long ago and visited Extreme(s) as well as a few other startups. I was blown away by the quality of stuff being built there and Waterloo. I'd not hesitate to start or join something there. There's real energy in that city ... and it's growing.
- sabat 14y ago
  Hype may be somewhat more extreme in the hustle-and-bustle environment of the Valley, but hype is always something to be wary of. It's really no less likely to happen in, say, Vancouver.
- vecinu 14y ago
  I'm glad you had a great experience visiting Toronto and experiencing the startup culture there. I'm sure I'll see the area totally different when I return from SF and I may just find a role that I fit in very well. I totally agree with you about the over inflated hype currently in the valley. While this leads to a lot of failed startups and 'wrong' ideas being funded, I think it's still a healthy ecosystem for promoting innovation. Like you said in your article, shooting for the moon in Canada makes you seem insane while it's seen as commonplace in SF.
  - ryanpers 14y ago
    The hype and "over-investing" is deliberate. Why? Well, let's face it, the most revolutionary things have all started sounding silly and insane. People will buy things over computers without having actually seen or touched them? Humans will fly? Will travel to the moon? Everything is actually well modelled by equations that imply that everything is a wave and has probability it exists? So just because YOU think it sounds crazy or insane, doesn't mean it doesn't have a chance at something big. After all, who would want to communicate in 140 characters only, or have a real time feed of everything their friends do, or want tiny square pictures on their phone? On the subject matter, I've lived in SF for a few years now and I was born in Canada. In the US people will give you a chance, in Canada companies want to know what you have done and get you to do more of it.
    - tsotha 14y ago
      >So just because YOU think it sounds crazy or insane, doesn't mean it doesn't have a chance at something big. This is true. I can name half a dozen billion dollar companies I rolled my eyes at when people told me what they do. "They're trying to make money by having people tell everyone they know what they ate for breakfast? Really?"
akg_67 14y ago
"I don't see the same enthusiasm towards tech and startup in Toronto that I see here in The Valley." Having tried establishing my startup in Toronto before, I fully agree with your statement. I know at least 6 more people who got frustrated trying to start tech companies in Toronto/Waterloo and finally gave up and moved to US/valley. Most Canadian govt funding programs for startups (I tried) are for politicians to handout to their supporters. You need to be incredibly well-connected to overcome the barriers set to get funding. Most people involved in startup/tech wouldn't give a chance to local startup unless there was validation from someone in US or valley. It was funny that one local VC I was trying to connect with wouldn't return my calls. One evening, when I sent him an email mentioning that I have a meeting with a NY VC next day, the guy calls me 11pm in the night wanting to know more about my startup. Without valley/NY connections, it is incredibly difficult in Toronto for a tech startup.
- dquail 14y ago
  The great Canadian startups I know don't look incredibly highly of government programs (namely SR&ED and IRAP). They're great, but can be distracting, taking you away from building value in your startup and into filling out meaningless forms. That said, free money is free money, and I've seen successful startups (that aren't politically connected) leverage these programs without being distracted.
  - amackera 14y ago
    We leverage both SR&ED and IRAP at our company, but it's difficult. It is a huge distraction, taking valuable time away from actual research and development. They requirements are way too stringent in my opinion. There should be tax credits or funding specifically for startups, especially startups still trying to find their product/market fit in the early stages.
    - dquail 14y ago
      That's consistent with my experience. Not only onerous paperwork; but very poor advice wrt how to build a business. This is federal money not intended for high risk high reward opportunities. The advice I got was "you should focus more on a niche instead of a mass market. Your chances of success will be much higher"
jsingleton 14y ago
Agreed. A lot of people seem to be mentioning Toronto (never been) but can anyone comment on the tech/startup scene in Vancouver (loved it but it seems very small)?
- senorprogrammer 14y ago
  There's a lot of development talent and ambition in Vancouver, and a healthy chunk of it not at all related to the video game or movie industry; there are quite a number of legitimate start-ups going on, most of them seemingly located down in Gastown. The biggest barrier to start-ups in Vancouver is probably investment availability. There's a few active angels and VCs but you can count them on one hand. The majority who want in seem to be incredibly risk-adverse, treating a 50k angel investment as though it were the last gold bullion on earth. On top of that, Vancouver is very lifestyle-driven, especially once spring and summer roll around. The mountains and ocean are seductive (that's why I moved out here), and make it seem like insanity to spend 16 hrs a day toiling in front of the computer when there's an entire playground out there. So, if I were going to start a high-energy start-up, Vancouver is not where I'd pick first.
- hjay 14y ago
  There is definitely a lot of talent in Vancouver, though many of the people I know have their eyes set on SV/the U.S. Investors here are very hesitant to open up their wallet (much like areas like Australia). Some big companies have development located here, but I would not say the startup scene is very big at all. There are accelerators like GrowLab (since 2011), but nothing like the valley. I definitely agree with the overall premise of the article though, people here see a lot of the "money-throwing" over in the valley and feel it's often way overblown/hyped.
- bwertz 14y ago
  There are a few really successful companies here in Vancouver (Hootsuite, Clio, Unbounce, A Thinking Ape, Indochino), a healthy early-stage ecosystem (LaunchAcademy, GrowLab) and a great pool of developers and designers (that's why you have Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft and Apple all having development offices in town)
- 14y ago

by vecinu 14y ago

dquail 14y ago

* Disclaimer - I wrote this post. Totally agree, Canada is incredibly diverse so this article is a bit overgeneralizing. Starting in Waterloo / Toronto / Vancouver / is night and day to Winnipeg (nothing against winnipeg). The main take away is to be wary of the hype in the valley. That pervades the culture. Everyone from investors to your family fill you up with hype. You don't get that in Canada. You've gotta fight harder. That, in my opinion, isn't a bad thing. You can go much further on a dumb idea in the valley. *and yes I know that some of the best startups were once dumb ideas. But I don't believe the "valley" made them succeed. I think there's more companies that die because of false positives than companies that succeed in spite of not having them. And yes. I readily admit that you need connections in the valley. I wouldn't be starting in Canada if I didn't already have a killer bay area network. BTW. I toured Toronto not that long ago and visited Extreme(s) as well as a few other startups. I was blown away by the quality of stuff being built there and Waterloo. I'd not hesitate to start or join something there. There's real energy in that city ... and it's growing.

sabat 14y ago
Hype may be somewhat more extreme in the hustle-and-bustle environment of the Valley, but hype is always something to be wary of. It's really no less likely to happen in, say, Vancouver.
vecinu 14y ago
I'm glad you had a great experience visiting Toronto and experiencing the startup culture there. I'm sure I'll see the area totally different when I return from SF and I may just find a role that I fit in very well. I totally agree with you about the over inflated hype currently in the valley. While this leads to a lot of failed startups and 'wrong' ideas being funded, I think it's still a healthy ecosystem for promoting innovation. Like you said in your article, shooting for the moon in Canada makes you seem insane while it's seen as commonplace in SF.
- ryanpers 14y ago
  The hype and "over-investing" is deliberate. Why? Well, let's face it, the most revolutionary things have all started sounding silly and insane. People will buy things over computers without having actually seen or touched them? Humans will fly? Will travel to the moon? Everything is actually well modelled by equations that imply that everything is a wave and has probability it exists? So just because YOU think it sounds crazy or insane, doesn't mean it doesn't have a chance at something big. After all, who would want to communicate in 140 characters only, or have a real time feed of everything their friends do, or want tiny square pictures on their phone? On the subject matter, I've lived in SF for a few years now and I was born in Canada. In the US people will give you a chance, in Canada companies want to know what you have done and get you to do more of it.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    >So just because YOU think it sounds crazy or insane, doesn't mean it doesn't have a chance at something big. This is true. I can name half a dozen billion dollar companies I rolled my eyes at when people told me what they do. "They're trying to make money by having people tell everyone they know what they ate for breakfast? Really?"

akg_67 14y ago

"I don't see the same enthusiasm towards tech and startup in Toronto that I see here in The Valley." Having tried establishing my startup in Toronto before, I fully agree with your statement. I know at least 6 more people who got frustrated trying to start tech companies in Toronto/Waterloo and finally gave up and moved to US/valley. Most Canadian govt funding programs for startups (I tried) are for politicians to handout to their supporters. You need to be incredibly well-connected to overcome the barriers set to get funding. Most people involved in startup/tech wouldn't give a chance to local startup unless there was validation from someone in US or valley. It was funny that one local VC I was trying to connect with wouldn't return my calls. One evening, when I sent him an email mentioning that I have a meeting with a NY VC next day, the guy calls me 11pm in the night wanting to know more about my startup. Without valley/NY connections, it is incredibly difficult in Toronto for a tech startup.

dquail 14y ago
The great Canadian startups I know don't look incredibly highly of government programs (namely SR&ED and IRAP). They're great, but can be distracting, taking you away from building value in your startup and into filling out meaningless forms. That said, free money is free money, and I've seen successful startups (that aren't politically connected) leverage these programs without being distracted.
- amackera 14y ago
  We leverage both SR&ED and IRAP at our company, but it's difficult. It is a huge distraction, taking valuable time away from actual research and development. They requirements are way too stringent in my opinion. There should be tax credits or funding specifically for startups, especially startups still trying to find their product/market fit in the early stages.
  - dquail 14y ago
    That's consistent with my experience. Not only onerous paperwork; but very poor advice wrt how to build a business. This is federal money not intended for high risk high reward opportunities. The advice I got was "you should focus more on a niche instead of a mass market. Your chances of success will be much higher"

jsingleton 14y ago

Agreed. A lot of people seem to be mentioning Toronto (never been) but can anyone comment on the tech/startup scene in Vancouver (loved it but it seems very small)?

senorprogrammer 14y ago
There's a lot of development talent and ambition in Vancouver, and a healthy chunk of it not at all related to the video game or movie industry; there are quite a number of legitimate start-ups going on, most of them seemingly located down in Gastown. The biggest barrier to start-ups in Vancouver is probably investment availability. There's a few active angels and VCs but you can count them on one hand. The majority who want in seem to be incredibly risk-adverse, treating a 50k angel investment as though it were the last gold bullion on earth. On top of that, Vancouver is very lifestyle-driven, especially once spring and summer roll around. The mountains and ocean are seductive (that's why I moved out here), and make it seem like insanity to spend 16 hrs a day toiling in front of the computer when there's an entire playground out there. So, if I were going to start a high-energy start-up, Vancouver is not where I'd pick first.
hjay 14y ago
There is definitely a lot of talent in Vancouver, though many of the people I know have their eyes set on SV/the U.S. Investors here are very hesitant to open up their wallet (much like areas like Australia). Some big companies have development located here, but I would not say the startup scene is very big at all. There are accelerators like GrowLab (since 2011), but nothing like the valley. I definitely agree with the overall premise of the article though, people here see a lot of the "money-throwing" over in the valley and feel it's often way overblown/hyped.
bwertz 14y ago
There are a few really successful companies here in Vancouver (Hootsuite, Clio, Unbounce, A Thinking Ape, Indochino), a healthy early-stage ecosystem (LaunchAcademy, GrowLab) and a great pool of developers and designers (that's why you have Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft and Apple all having development offices in town)
14y ago