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Why Startups Should Choose Canada Over Silicon Valley

131 points by dquail 14y ago

onlyoneroad 14y ago
a few points that were missed: -servers stay nice and cool naturally -don't need to worry aboot hackers since the mounties always get their man -ice blocks can be used as inexpensive construction materials -cheap third world labor readily available in canadian cities it's not all perfect though - for example, you need to watch that beavers don't chew through your network cables
lubujackson 14y ago
To be clear, this is specifically aimed at telling Canadian startups to stay in Canada. YMMV.
kevingadd 14y ago
I'd love to choose Canada, but the last time I looked at the immigration 'points' system, they only want me if I have $500k+ USD worth of money to invest in the country (hah, as if I'd need to move if I did) or I'm a fluent French speaker...
- fn 14y ago
  Enter the Canada Startup Visa, released last week: http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/02/silicon-valley-north-canada-startup-visa-program-could-cost-u-s-in-war-for-talent/ http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/02/silicon-valley-north-canad... http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/ind...
  - kevingadd 14y ago
    That's incredible! Thanks for the link :) EDIT: Bah, too bad they demand proof of secondary education. Sucks for people who couldn't afford college...
    - derefr 14y ago
      The same problem occurs for a Canadian with no college degree (but tons of freelance dev experience) wishing to move to SV. Anyone here know a good way to get around that? Some details: I took two years of university so far, but ran out of money to keep going. I'm now living month-to-month (averaging about "feed myself and pay rent for a room") doing severely underpaid web-app development (think ELance rates.) Apparently my skillset (Ruby, Erlang, systems-level/embedded C, Clojure, some Cocoa Touch experience) would be making me at least $100K/yr in SV, but nobody wants it up here in Vancouver; it's all ASP shops and C++ game-dev, and most of the gigs I do get end up being in PHP, even though it's not my forte. I really don't want to spend however-many more years it would take to pay my way through school at this rate, struggling out in the software "hinterlands", when a better life is just one border-crossing away. And technically, If I'm asking for a pony, I don't really want to get hired by a Microsoft or a Google and only work in the US for them; I want to go to the US because I want to participate in SV startup culture, which both includes working for a startup, and starting my own. It seems like that possibility is just locked out for anyone but permanent residents of the US, though.
      - stormbrew 14y ago
        If by diploma you mean a 2 year (which is usually what it means in Canada), it won't be enough on its own. You can actually get an exemption if you can demonstrate equivalent knowledge and a career progression towards it. What that usually means is having a professor of your field vouch for your knowledge and being able to prove work history for 3 or 4 years of each of the four years of university you didn't take. A two year diploma may cut that amount in half, but I wouldn't necessarily count on it. If your work history is hard to prove you may want to try other types of visas. TN-1s aren't so difficult, but re-entry can apparently be a pain. You can also get an equivalent to an H-1B by working for a Canadian subsidiary (of, say, MS or Google) for about a year and then getting a transfer to the American head office. I believe these are much easier to get. And then there's the traditional ways, like being sponsored by family etc. Unfortunately, no matter what, a degree will make it much much easier.
        14y ago
- bwertz 14y ago
  @versiononevc is one of the funds that is designated for Startup Visa Canada - shoot me an email, happy to talk
- MacsHeadroom 14y ago
  Last time you checked was probably before last December's massive overhaul of the points system (which goes into effect in 4 weeks). Hint: If you're an English speaking American with more than 5 years of work experience or a bachelors degree you have enough points- no investment fund needed. See: http://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2012/2012-08-18/html/reg2-eng.html http://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2012/2012-08-18/html/reg2-eng....
  - saffer 14y ago
    > Hint: If you're an English speaking American with more than 5 years of work experience or a bachelors degree you have enough points As an English speaking South-African finishing a PhD at an American university, it's good to know there are other options if the U.S. decides not to give me an H1-B (the quota was exceeded in the first week, so apparently we all get put through a lottery: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5513761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5513761)
    - MacsHeadroom 14y ago
      Canadian residents are covered by universal healthcare, can vote, can work, etc. (That's a lot more than the U.S. offers residents.) You need 67 points to get residency status in Canada. With the new system: PhD? 25 Points Speak English? 24 Points Under 35? 12 points (less 1 point per year over 35) 1 Year of work experience? 9 points Total: 70 points There are a lot more ways you can get points. But if you're a young or middle aged English speaker with a degree or a few years of job experience, you're in.
      - fn 14y ago
        Anyone know how long the entire process takes -- from sending in the application, all the way to being able to cross the border with a moving van -- using the points system?
        fduran 14y ago
        When I did it in 2004 it took one year almost to the date to get the approval, another 6 months to get the visa (you need to submit medical test). There is/was a web site where people posted their times so you could get an idea, also there's the official site, I don't remember if they give some times.
- fduran 14y ago
  I think that's for the investor visa, I immigrated as a skilled worker (points system) http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/ http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/ , currently you only need to prove 11k in savings and the other requirements seem pretty accessible to anyone imho.
vecinu 14y ago
I have a few problems with this article, namely the comparisons drawn between The Valley and Canada. I am currently a Canadian citizen, working in San Francisco at a company that moved from Vancouver many years ago. The author seems to be comparing the Bay Area to the entirety of Canada. Canada is not a small area, a city or a state. It is an entire 'continent' spanning multiple provinces with very different laws and dynamics. A startup in Waterloo, Ontario targeted towards engineering may fare better than one founded in Vancouver. Secondly, he is mentioning his connections in the Bay Area that have helped him succeed in Canada. First he is arguing FOR founding a startup in Canada but then admits that most of his barriers to entry were lifted with help from the valley. There is a difference when you're starting fresh in Waterloo without any outside help. I think what the author should have done is draw a parallel between The Valley and somewhere in Canada (Waterloo, Vancouver, Montreal, etc...). One may not be better than the other but perhaps working WITH The Valley can help get your startup off the ground elsewhere. I would personally love to work for a startup back home in Toronto and perhaps one day found my own but I don't see the same enthusiasm towards tech and startup in Toronto that I see here in The Valley.
- dquail 14y ago
  * Disclaimer - I wrote this post. Totally agree, Canada is incredibly diverse so this article is a bit overgeneralizing. Starting in Waterloo / Toronto / Vancouver / is night and day to Winnipeg (nothing against winnipeg). The main take away is to be wary of the hype in the valley. That pervades the culture. Everyone from investors to your family fill you up with hype. You don't get that in Canada. You've gotta fight harder. That, in my opinion, isn't a bad thing. You can go much further on a dumb idea in the valley. *and yes I know that some of the best startups were once dumb ideas. But I don't believe the "valley" made them succeed. I think there's more companies that die because of false positives than companies that succeed in spite of not having them. And yes. I readily admit that you need connections in the valley. I wouldn't be starting in Canada if I didn't already have a killer bay area network. BTW. I toured Toronto not that long ago and visited Extreme(s) as well as a few other startups. I was blown away by the quality of stuff being built there and Waterloo. I'd not hesitate to start or join something there. There's real energy in that city ... and it's growing.
vorvzakone 14y ago
Yeah no.
OmarIsmail 14y ago
A good direction seems to be Waterloo/Velocity->YC->Seed round->Main office in Canada There's a ton of advantages of having your main office in Canada, but there are many disadvantages as well. Seed round pretty much has to be done in SV as Canadian investors are notoriously cheap and horrible [1]. So you get your seed money in SV and then work for cheap in Canada. The downside is that not having "close" communication with your investors may impact follow-on financing, though that remains to be seen. Also, for certain types of companies being surrounded by a bunch of other startups can be very useful. No matter what, if you're going to be in the tech industry it's usually a good thing to have some contacts and relationships in the valley. If you're a first time founder then doing everything from Canada is going to be difficult. If you've been around the block a few times, then the downsides aren't so bad, and the upsides are major. [1] Unconfirmed, but I heard a stat recently that BDC takes controlling interest in 75% of their pre-Series A deals.
PixelPusher 14y ago
Not to be mean, but the author looks really young. Maybe I'm getting old, but I find it really hard to take advice from such young people. My personal take is that they're bypassing a lot of the experience it takes to make a well rounded business person. I personally feel like a douche trying to give advice to other people, particularly people older than me.
- dquail 14y ago
  * Disclaimer - I wrote the post Thanks for suggesting I look young :) I have a hard time taking advice from young people too. Well ... until Brian Wong, schooled me during a tech conference we were both panelists for. A lot of super smart valley entrepreneurs "bypass" what it takes to be a well rounded business person ... I guess. But I doubt that has anything to do with age, and more to do with the current frothy acquisition and funding environment.
  - PixelPusher 14y ago
    Thinking about it, I'm sure they can be just as good. Regardless of age. I would guess it's like anything else. Constant exposure and practicing will breed excellence. I would just be scared of all the mistakes they haven't made yet. It's funny you mention Brian Wong, his company is a competitor of the company i work for. He's a smart guy, from what i can tell, but he would actually be one of the examples i'd use to cite lack of experience. In software development, lack of experience can be a really big issue. For example, with lack of experience you may choose core piece of technology based on hype. coughmongodb and kiipcough But, I digress, thanks for the article. Learned a bit about the Canadian start up eco-system.
    - viame 14y ago
      "In software development, lack of experience can be a really big issue" can you explain this one to me? I hope that someone who calls themselves a senior developer with 20 years experience will know a lot about different technologies. On the other hand if you are a co-founder who needs to code, design, network and do many many other things, software development has nothing to do with it. Your demo will not be using the right technologies. Companies grow and new developers get hired. Code gets re-written and technologies you use, will be changed.
ultrasaurus 14y ago
One thing that Canada has in it's favour is that for competent CS graduates, you're competing with stultifying companies rather than companies in the SF bubble. PagerDuty is one of those companies that I expect Canada would've been happy to keep, and we're loving it in SF, but we're fighting with a lot of similar companies for people. This year, we opened up an office in Toronto, and even though our standards are the same (exact same interview process everywhere) we've had a measurably easier time attracting CS talent.
- mahyarm 14y ago
  But can't Canadians move to the valley too with the TN visa?
  - bzmwillemsen 14y ago
    Canadians can move to the valley with a visa but there are a lot of Canadians who want to stay in Canada. I live in Waterloo and am a CS student and I have talked to hundreds of students who do not want to leave Canada, even if they are offered a very attractive package from a company simply because they like Canada. Myself being one of them.
  - dquail 14y ago
    Us Immigration sucks. But if you're a talented engineer ... You can get down there. But there's plenty of Canadians that would to prefer to stay.
- dquail 14y ago
  I run an internship program placing Canadian interns in the valley, and have interviewed plenty of students from US schools. There's some amazing students coming out of Waterloo and UBC in particular. Waterloo grads are as competent and hungry as grads from MIT or Stanford. I've been amazed with them.
  - spitfire 14y ago
    You should have spoken to them pre-2001 then. Waterloo dumbed down the first two years to be "more industry focused".[1] Waterloo has been founding great companies for decades - the Watcom compiler came out of there in the 80's and 90's. 1. A quote from a friend who did his PhD there during the period.
deleted 14y ago
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strebler 14y ago
Rose coloured glasses. You want to startup in Canada? Either a) have access to network with money, or b) bootstrap like there's no tomorrow. Investors in Canada have an appetite for risk somewhere in the neighbourhood of "mutual fund vs GIC" levels. For someone with Silicon Valley connections, fine it could work, but this is not good general advice. Even iNovia, which is probably the most forward looking VC in the country, has a fairly small fund (low $100M if memory serves), I believe below the size of the average US fund.
- 3pt14159 14y ago
  This man here speaks the truth. Without revenue, it is easier to get a $30k grant than it is to find an angel investor willing to invest for the same amount. (Source: I raised a $30k grant in about 3 meetings and 5 hours of paper work. I also spent about 6 months with two idiot "angel investors" from Ryerson Angel Network when I was young and dumb and didn't close a dime. One guy said he wanted to invest but sheepishly said "I'll have to ask my wife first, since it is $10k". More like RRSP investors. The only angel investor in Toronto that is worth anything is the one guy from maple that told me that nobody in the city has any money and to just get on bootstrapping.) It is even easier to raise $800k in grant money too. Depending on your startup, the CMF may think that your startup is in fact an "emerging digital platform" that has promise. Most startups I know that raised this type of capital did so from Americans. If you are a Canadian angel that disagrees, feel free to talk to me. I know a bunch of pre-revenue startups that are cool, but you won't ever hear of because they've all given up hoping to raise Canadian cash.
  - drpgq 14y ago
    I've wondered about becoming an angel investor in Canada. I guess the ability to invest $10,000 without asking a wife qualifies me.
  - bwertz 14y ago
    Not a Canadian angel but an early-stage fund (www.versiononeventures.com) - would love to talk to the start-ups you are mentioning - thx for making an intro.
  - 14y ago
imack 14y ago
On the main point of the article, I do agree that a lot of ideas fly higher in San Francisco than other parts of North America. I see "Highlight" as a good example of this where an app finds a lot of early adopters in a small area but it becomes harder for that kind of ubiquity to happen somewhere people aren't as fascinated by new technology like people outside of the valley are. I believe that a number of communities like this end up being "geek ghettos" on account of this.
busterarm 14y ago
It seems disingenuous for the OP to advocate Canada because of the US immigration policy when hiring non-Canadians to fill jobs usually requires a Labour Market Opinion proving that you couldn't find a Canadian to fill the job.
- untog 14y ago
  The US system requires the exact same thing.
  - busterarm 14y ago
    Yeah, that's my point. OP criticized the US policy and presented the Canadian system as an alternative when it isn't. In fact, the only benefit here seems to be for founders, but given the comments about the lack of angel/VC money in Canada, fulfilling the requirements looks to be difficult.
mmmelissa 14y ago
I wonder if cheaper health care costs give Canada any kind of advantage business-wise?
- bzmwillemsen 14y ago
  Benefits packages for employees are def cheaper :)
- fraserharris 14y ago
  We pay ~$100 - 200 / employee / month for dental & extended health care in Canada. I've heard of some startups in the US with older employees paying an order of magnitude more than that.
- dquail 14y ago
  In Vancouver you can easily score awesome developers for 80K/year (160K in the valley) Through SR&ED you can get up to 40% of this back (so you're down to 50K / engineer (*note that I've not personally used SR&ED but I know others who have successfully). And finally, benefits packages are in the low thousands / year instead of tens of thousands. All told, you can build a team of awesome engineers for 1/2~1/3 the price of what it'd cost in the valley.
- rupertm 14y ago
  Absolutely they do. Employers don't have to chip in for basic insurance... that's already paid for. Employers end up taking part of that money and throwing it into extended benefits: in Vancouver I get $200 every 2 years for eyeglasses, $400/y HCSA (covers massage, acupuncture, nutritionist, etc.), $1500/y dental, fantastic Rx coverage, 1x/annual income life insurance, etc etc etc. - all of which costs the company less than what it costs the same company to provide basic insurance to their employees in the USA. Sure, the employee pays more in income tax, but there's no lifetime maximum on claims, no 'taking a chance' and hoping you don't get sick, no gambling with your health period. For me that extra 6% I pay in income tax is well worth it.
  - wisty 14y ago
    Also, everyone pays the same price (through taxes), so big companies don't get any advantage from their stronger negotiating power. OK, there's also private insurance (for stuff like dental, and private hospitals). But since companies aren't expected to pay it, it's more competitive.
softbuilder 14y ago
s/Canada/Portland/ Our visa is easier to get. :) (if you're in the US)
- shmerl 14y ago
  Why not s/Canada/New York/ ?-)
  - softbuilder 14y ago
    Because I'm not in New York! :) Also, I originally wrote it out as s/Canada/(Portland|Austin|Raleigh)/ and then felt like NYC was conspicuously left out. And further realized those other cities could post for themselves.
    - stormbrew 14y ago
      Also you'd confuse sed, it would have no idea which one to replace with. ;)
      - softbuilder 14y ago
        That's true, I was taking literary license with sed. :)
nasalgoat 14y ago
Being in Canada also means flying under the radar, which can be a good thing for long term viability of your product. My company does 100x the traffic of our nearest competitor but you'll never see a TechCrunch article about us, since we're in Toronto. So there's no pressure for overnight success and you can work diligently towards making a better product instead of meeting unreasonable expectations.
- wmoxam 14y ago
  Being in Toronto has nothing to do with seeing (or not seeing) a TC article about your company. TC covers plenty of Toronto based startups, including the last two that I've worked for. Also, seeing your company on TC isn't all that useful anyways...
  - dquail 14y ago
    I think he was using techcrunch write ups as an example. In Canada, there seems to be less time spent focusing on the tech elite echo chamber ... keeping up with the startup benjamins.
schiang 14y ago
> At the end of the day, my advice to Canadian startups is to stay in Canada I think this can apply to many cities outside of the silicon valley bubble.
- dquail 14y ago
  Yup, you're essentially right (I wrote the post). The gist of the article really could have been "Why you should start your startup outside of the valley" ... but choosing Canada has a few specific advantages I never really delved into with this post ...
  - schiang 14y ago
    I agree with so much of what you said in your article. I'm trying to make it in LA for a lot of the same reasons why you're working in Canada.
dmourati 14y ago
"Why Canadian Startups Should Choose Canada over Silicon Valley."
rdl 14y ago
If I were doing something legally challenging in any way related to copyright or privacy/security of consumers (particularly w.r.t. finance), I'd seriously consider (in no particular order) CA CH NZ HK SG various-EU. Curious where Chile and Brazil fall for privacy/security stuff, including AML and general financial regulations. Costa Rica and Panama are the traditional Central American options, and there are the Caribbean or other island/tax haven options, but a lot of those are too small to have developers (and expensive), and will bend over for the US officially or unofficially, particularly if a small business is involved (without political connections); I made the mistake of doing stuff in Anguilla before.
dquail 14y ago
To those complaining about raising money as a Canadian startup. Overly simplified steps: 1. Stop whining. 2. Build something awesome. 3. Spend time on angelist angel.co 4. Spend time on hipmunk.com booking your trip 5. Be thankful you're starting your company in 2013 and not before 2009 when tax laws made it painful for foreign investment, there wasn't a frothy environment in the valley, when fundraising was actually hard, when starting up was way more expensive. 6. Watch the money roll in.
dear 14y ago
So the moral of the story is: if you are a first timer, do it in SV. Once you make enough connections from SV, do it in Canada.
thisisnotatest 14y ago
The author says he chose to start his company in Canada because, "In the Bay Area, investors, friends, and early adopters are so embracing and supportive of new ideas," and this can actually have bad consequences. It's an interesting notion. I have no startup experience, so maybe this is a dumb question, but isn't the solution just, "Take what investors, friends, and early adopters say with a grain of salt"?
- dquail 14y ago
  Absolutely, that's fantastic solution, and what great entrepreneurs in the valley do. Unfortunately that's easier said than done ... especially given how pervasive the "buzz" can get.
SilconValleyVC 14y ago
As a VC in Silicon Valley I have tremendous respect for the Valley, but I must say (having formerly lived in LA) it sometimes feels like a 1 industry town. In L.A. every and his brother "had a screenplay." "Oh man, can you read my screen play? We're looking to raise a million for this indie film." In Silicon Valley say you're a VC and my lord the way people change, from talking to you casually to looking at you like an addict and you're a bag of heroine they desperately need. Startups CAN actually survive and meet early milestones without us VCs you know. In Canada I'll bet it would be refreshing to "have" to meet those early milestones without being made to feel like a failure just because you're not already "funded." "Are you funded? Yeah, by who?" "You're not funded? Oh bummer." (Person walks away.) So eventually a Canadian entrepreneur may need/want to move to Silicon Valley, but I'll bet they learn alot - and find it alot more refreshing - to start out at first without the non stop "you got a screenplay? you got an agent?" equivalent I see and hear every day and every hour in Silicon Valley. We VCs aren't the be all end all. Happy to take any questions from entrepreneurs.
- dquail 14y ago
  Absolutely agree (I wrote the post). It's amazed me (but not shocked me) to see so much of the commentary focus on the state (or lack thereof) of VC in Canada. VC can be a means to an end. But it certainly isn't the end ...
j_mack 14y ago
Other than the Dragon's Den show that makes a mockery of early stage entrepreneurs, or "cockroaches" as one panelist likes to refer to them, Canada has failed miserably to participate in the tech scene. From a recent report by the Conference Board of Canada titled "Canada Fails to Put its Money Where its Ideas are—and it Shows in Poor Innovation Grade": "Ottawa, April 4, 2013—Canada ranks second-to-last among its peers in venture capital investment and business R&D spending, according to The Conference Board of Canada’s ranking of innovation among the world’s leading economies. And the rest of the report card doesn’t get much better, as Canada ranks 13th in the 16-country How Canada Performs benchmarking." Google the report if you have any dillusions about doing a startup up in Cantada
- Phil_D 14y ago
  would be funny if wasn't so true
- dquail 14y ago
  The state of local VC is only one of many elements to measure startup prospects in a market. Given "the market" is becoming more global, I'd argue "local VC" is becoming moot
  - j_mack 14y ago
    The inability to access vc in Cantada is moot, maybe if you're 16 and living with your parents. I suppose Canadian bootstrappers could always mine for bitcoins... that's pretty modern, global too!
dougrenert 14y ago
Not sure if this has been picked up anywhere else in the comments, but I find the Canadian university coop system prepares students there to be entrepreneurs better than anything I've seen in a U.S. university. This requires them to work in an actual JOB. As mentioned, Waterloo grads tend to be stellar, and our best intern to date came out of UBC in a coop (thank you, David Q, for placing him with us!). Why don't U.S. universities run coop programs? My school fought like hell to keep students on campus. I guess they viewed work as destroying the "art" of liberal arts...
- dquail 14y ago
  Thx Doug. For context, Doug runs TandemEntrepreneurs.com - The valleys leading mobile incubator/investors - which was extremely successful in it's first fund. So this is high praise.

131 points by dquail 14y ago

a few points that were missed: -servers stay nice and cool naturally -don't need to worry aboot hackers since the mounties always get their man -ice blocks can be used as inexpensive construction materials -cheap third world labor readily available in canadian cities it's not all perfect though - for example, you need to watch that beavers don't chew through your network cables

lubujackson 14y ago

To be clear, this is specifically aimed at telling Canadian startups to stay in Canada. YMMV.

kevingadd 14y ago

I'd love to choose Canada, but the last time I looked at the immigration 'points' system, they only want me if I have $500k+ USD worth of money to invest in the country (hah, as if I'd need to move if I did) or I'm a fluent French speaker...

fn 14y ago
Enter the Canada Startup Visa, released last week: http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/02/silicon-valley-north-canada-startup-visa-program-could-cost-u-s-in-war-for-talent/ http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/02/silicon-valley-north-canad... http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/index.asp http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/business/start-up/ind...
- kevingadd 14y ago
  That's incredible! Thanks for the link :) EDIT: Bah, too bad they demand proof of secondary education. Sucks for people who couldn't afford college...
  - derefr 14y ago
    The same problem occurs for a Canadian with no college degree (but tons of freelance dev experience) wishing to move to SV. Anyone here know a good way to get around that? Some details: I took two years of university so far, but ran out of money to keep going. I'm now living month-to-month (averaging about "feed myself and pay rent for a room") doing severely underpaid web-app development (think ELance rates.) Apparently my skillset (Ruby, Erlang, systems-level/embedded C, Clojure, some Cocoa Touch experience) would be making me at least $100K/yr in SV, but nobody wants it up here in Vancouver; it's all ASP shops and C++ game-dev, and most of the gigs I do get end up being in PHP, even though it's not my forte. I really don't want to spend however-many more years it would take to pay my way through school at this rate, struggling out in the software "hinterlands", when a better life is just one border-crossing away. And technically, If I'm asking for a pony, I don't really want to get hired by a Microsoft or a Google and only work in the US for them; I want to go to the US because I want to participate in SV startup culture, which both includes working for a startup, and starting my own. It seems like that possibility is just locked out for anyone but permanent residents of the US, though.
    - stormbrew 14y ago
      If by diploma you mean a 2 year (which is usually what it means in Canada), it won't be enough on its own. You can actually get an exemption if you can demonstrate equivalent knowledge and a career progression towards it. What that usually means is having a professor of your field vouch for your knowledge and being able to prove work history for 3 or 4 years of each of the four years of university you didn't take. A two year diploma may cut that amount in half, but I wouldn't necessarily count on it. If your work history is hard to prove you may want to try other types of visas. TN-1s aren't so difficult, but re-entry can apparently be a pain. You can also get an equivalent to an H-1B by working for a Canadian subsidiary (of, say, MS or Google) for about a year and then getting a transfer to the American head office. I believe these are much easier to get. And then there's the traditional ways, like being sponsored by family etc. Unfortunately, no matter what, a degree will make it much much easier.
      - 14y ago
bwertz 14y ago
@versiononevc is one of the funds that is designated for Startup Visa Canada - shoot me an email, happy to talk
MacsHeadroom 14y ago
Last time you checked was probably before last December's massive overhaul of the points system (which goes into effect in 4 weeks). Hint: If you're an English speaking American with more than 5 years of work experience or a bachelors degree you have enough points- no investment fund needed. See: http://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2012/2012-08-18/html/reg2-eng.html http://gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2012/2012-08-18/html/reg2-eng....
- saffer 14y ago
  > Hint: If you're an English speaking American with more than 5 years of work experience or a bachelors degree you have enough points As an English speaking South-African finishing a PhD at an American university, it's good to know there are other options if the U.S. decides not to give me an H1-B (the quota was exceeded in the first week, so apparently we all get put through a lottery: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5513761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5513761)
  - MacsHeadroom 14y ago
    Canadian residents are covered by universal healthcare, can vote, can work, etc. (That's a lot more than the U.S. offers residents.) You need 67 points to get residency status in Canada. With the new system: PhD? 25 Points Speak English? 24 Points Under 35? 12 points (less 1 point per year over 35) 1 Year of work experience? 9 points Total: 70 points There are a lot more ways you can get points. But if you're a young or middle aged English speaker with a degree or a few years of job experience, you're in.
    - fn 14y ago
      Anyone know how long the entire process takes -- from sending in the application, all the way to being able to cross the border with a moving van -- using the points system?
      - fduran 14y ago
        When I did it in 2004 it took one year almost to the date to get the approval, another 6 months to get the visa (you need to submit medical test). There is/was a web site where people posted their times so you could get an idea, also there's the official site, I don't remember if they give some times.
fduran 14y ago
I think that's for the investor visa, I immigrated as a skilled worker (points system) http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/ http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/ , currently you only need to prove 11k in savings and the other requirements seem pretty accessible to anyone imho.

vecinu 14y ago

I have a few problems with this article, namely the comparisons drawn between The Valley and Canada. I am currently a Canadian citizen, working in San Francisco at a company that moved from Vancouver many years ago. The author seems to be comparing the Bay Area to the entirety of Canada. Canada is not a small area, a city or a state. It is an entire 'continent' spanning multiple provinces with very different laws and dynamics. A startup in Waterloo, Ontario targeted towards engineering may fare better than one founded in Vancouver. Secondly, he is mentioning his connections in the Bay Area that have helped him succeed in Canada. First he is arguing FOR founding a startup in Canada but then admits that most of his barriers to entry were lifted with help from the valley. There is a difference when you're starting fresh in Waterloo without any outside help. I think what the author should have done is draw a parallel between The Valley and somewhere in Canada (Waterloo, Vancouver, Montreal, etc...). One may not be better than the other but perhaps working WITH The Valley can help get your startup off the ground elsewhere. I would personally love to work for a startup back home in Toronto and perhaps one day found my own but I don't see the same enthusiasm towards tech and startup in Toronto that I see here in The Valley.

dquail 14y ago
* Disclaimer - I wrote this post. Totally agree, Canada is incredibly diverse so this article is a bit overgeneralizing. Starting in Waterloo / Toronto / Vancouver / is night and day to Winnipeg (nothing against winnipeg). The main take away is to be wary of the hype in the valley. That pervades the culture. Everyone from investors to your family fill you up with hype. You don't get that in Canada. You've gotta fight harder. That, in my opinion, isn't a bad thing. You can go much further on a dumb idea in the valley. *and yes I know that some of the best startups were once dumb ideas. But I don't believe the "valley" made them succeed. I think there's more companies that die because of false positives than companies that succeed in spite of not having them. And yes. I readily admit that you need connections in the valley. I wouldn't be starting in Canada if I didn't already have a killer bay area network. BTW. I toured Toronto not that long ago and visited Extreme(s) as well as a few other startups. I was blown away by the quality of stuff being built there and Waterloo. I'd not hesitate to start or join something there. There's real energy in that city ... and it's growing.

vorvzakone 14y ago

Yeah no.

OmarIsmail 14y ago

A good direction seems to be Waterloo/Velocity->YC->Seed round->Main office in Canada There's a ton of advantages of having your main office in Canada, but there are many disadvantages as well. Seed round pretty much has to be done in SV as Canadian investors are notoriously cheap and horrible [1]. So you get your seed money in SV and then work for cheap in Canada. The downside is that not having "close" communication with your investors may impact follow-on financing, though that remains to be seen. Also, for certain types of companies being surrounded by a bunch of other startups can be very useful. No matter what, if you're going to be in the tech industry it's usually a good thing to have some contacts and relationships in the valley. If you're a first time founder then doing everything from Canada is going to be difficult. If you've been around the block a few times, then the downsides aren't so bad, and the upsides are major. [1] Unconfirmed, but I heard a stat recently that BDC takes controlling interest in 75% of their pre-Series A deals.

PixelPusher 14y ago

Not to be mean, but the author looks really young. Maybe I'm getting old, but I find it really hard to take advice from such young people. My personal take is that they're bypassing a lot of the experience it takes to make a well rounded business person. I personally feel like a douche trying to give advice to other people, particularly people older than me.

dquail 14y ago
* Disclaimer - I wrote the post Thanks for suggesting I look young :) I have a hard time taking advice from young people too. Well ... until Brian Wong, schooled me during a tech conference we were both panelists for. A lot of super smart valley entrepreneurs "bypass" what it takes to be a well rounded business person ... I guess. But I doubt that has anything to do with age, and more to do with the current frothy acquisition and funding environment.
- PixelPusher 14y ago
  Thinking about it, I'm sure they can be just as good. Regardless of age. I would guess it's like anything else. Constant exposure and practicing will breed excellence. I would just be scared of all the mistakes they haven't made yet. It's funny you mention Brian Wong, his company is a competitor of the company i work for. He's a smart guy, from what i can tell, but he would actually be one of the examples i'd use to cite lack of experience. In software development, lack of experience can be a really big issue. For example, with lack of experience you may choose core piece of technology based on hype. coughmongodb and kiipcough But, I digress, thanks for the article. Learned a bit about the Canadian start up eco-system.
  - viame 14y ago
    "In software development, lack of experience can be a really big issue" can you explain this one to me? I hope that someone who calls themselves a senior developer with 20 years experience will know a lot about different technologies. On the other hand if you are a co-founder who needs to code, design, network and do many many other things, software development has nothing to do with it. Your demo will not be using the right technologies. Companies grow and new developers get hired. Code gets re-written and technologies you use, will be changed.

ultrasaurus 14y ago

One thing that Canada has in it's favour is that for competent CS graduates, you're competing with stultifying companies rather than companies in the SF bubble. PagerDuty is one of those companies that I expect Canada would've been happy to keep, and we're loving it in SF, but we're fighting with a lot of similar companies for people. This year, we opened up an office in Toronto, and even though our standards are the same (exact same interview process everywhere) we've had a measurably easier time attracting CS talent.

mahyarm 14y ago
But can't Canadians move to the valley too with the TN visa?
- bzmwillemsen 14y ago
  Canadians can move to the valley with a visa but there are a lot of Canadians who want to stay in Canada. I live in Waterloo and am a CS student and I have talked to hundreds of students who do not want to leave Canada, even if they are offered a very attractive package from a company simply because they like Canada. Myself being one of them.
- dquail 14y ago
  Us Immigration sucks. But if you're a talented engineer ... You can get down there. But there's plenty of Canadians that would to prefer to stay.
dquail 14y ago
I run an internship program placing Canadian interns in the valley, and have interviewed plenty of students from US schools. There's some amazing students coming out of Waterloo and UBC in particular. Waterloo grads are as competent and hungry as grads from MIT or Stanford. I've been amazed with them.
- spitfire 14y ago
  You should have spoken to them pre-2001 then. Waterloo dumbed down the first two years to be "more industry focused".[1] Waterloo has been founding great companies for decades - the Watcom compiler came out of there in the 80's and 90's. 1. A quote from a friend who did his PhD there during the period.

deleted 14y ago

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strebler 14y ago

Rose coloured glasses. You want to startup in Canada? Either a) have access to network with money, or b) bootstrap like there's no tomorrow. Investors in Canada have an appetite for risk somewhere in the neighbourhood of "mutual fund vs GIC" levels. For someone with Silicon Valley connections, fine it could work, but this is not good general advice. Even iNovia, which is probably the most forward looking VC in the country, has a fairly small fund (low $100M if memory serves), I believe below the size of the average US fund.

3pt14159 14y ago
This man here speaks the truth. Without revenue, it is easier to get a $30k grant than it is to find an angel investor willing to invest for the same amount. (Source: I raised a $30k grant in about 3 meetings and 5 hours of paper work. I also spent about 6 months with two idiot "angel investors" from Ryerson Angel Network when I was young and dumb and didn't close a dime. One guy said he wanted to invest but sheepishly said "I'll have to ask my wife first, since it is $10k". More like RRSP investors. The only angel investor in Toronto that is worth anything is the one guy from maple that told me that nobody in the city has any money and to just get on bootstrapping.) It is even easier to raise $800k in grant money too. Depending on your startup, the CMF may think that your startup is in fact an "emerging digital platform" that has promise. Most startups I know that raised this type of capital did so from Americans. If you are a Canadian angel that disagrees, feel free to talk to me. I know a bunch of pre-revenue startups that are cool, but you won't ever hear of because they've all given up hoping to raise Canadian cash.
- drpgq 14y ago
  I've wondered about becoming an angel investor in Canada. I guess the ability to invest $10,000 without asking a wife qualifies me.
- bwertz 14y ago
  Not a Canadian angel but an early-stage fund (www.versiononeventures.com) - would love to talk to the start-ups you are mentioning - thx for making an intro.
- 14y ago

imack 14y ago

On the main point of the article, I do agree that a lot of ideas fly higher in San Francisco than other parts of North America. I see "Highlight" as a good example of this where an app finds a lot of early adopters in a small area but it becomes harder for that kind of ubiquity to happen somewhere people aren't as fascinated by new technology like people outside of the valley are. I believe that a number of communities like this end up being "geek ghettos" on account of this.

busterarm 14y ago

It seems disingenuous for the OP to advocate Canada because of the US immigration policy when hiring non-Canadians to fill jobs usually requires a Labour Market Opinion proving that you couldn't find a Canadian to fill the job.

untog 14y ago
The US system requires the exact same thing.
- busterarm 14y ago
  Yeah, that's my point. OP criticized the US policy and presented the Canadian system as an alternative when it isn't. In fact, the only benefit here seems to be for founders, but given the comments about the lack of angel/VC money in Canada, fulfilling the requirements looks to be difficult.

mmmelissa 14y ago

I wonder if cheaper health care costs give Canada any kind of advantage business-wise?

bzmwillemsen 14y ago
Benefits packages for employees are def cheaper :)
fraserharris 14y ago
We pay ~$100 - 200 / employee / month for dental & extended health care in Canada. I've heard of some startups in the US with older employees paying an order of magnitude more than that.
dquail 14y ago
In Vancouver you can easily score awesome developers for 80K/year (160K in the valley) Through SR&ED you can get up to 40% of this back (so you're down to 50K / engineer (*note that I've not personally used SR&ED but I know others who have successfully). And finally, benefits packages are in the low thousands / year instead of tens of thousands. All told, you can build a team of awesome engineers for 1/2~1/3 the price of what it'd cost in the valley.
rupertm 14y ago
Absolutely they do. Employers don't have to chip in for basic insurance... that's already paid for. Employers end up taking part of that money and throwing it into extended benefits: in Vancouver I get $200 every 2 years for eyeglasses, $400/y HCSA (covers massage, acupuncture, nutritionist, etc.), $1500/y dental, fantastic Rx coverage, 1x/annual income life insurance, etc etc etc. - all of which costs the company less than what it costs the same company to provide basic insurance to their employees in the USA. Sure, the employee pays more in income tax, but there's no lifetime maximum on claims, no 'taking a chance' and hoping you don't get sick, no gambling with your health period. For me that extra 6% I pay in income tax is well worth it.
- wisty 14y ago
  Also, everyone pays the same price (through taxes), so big companies don't get any advantage from their stronger negotiating power. OK, there's also private insurance (for stuff like dental, and private hospitals). But since companies aren't expected to pay it, it's more competitive.

softbuilder 14y ago

s/Canada/Portland/ Our visa is easier to get. :) (if you're in the US)

shmerl 14y ago
Why not s/Canada/New York/ ?-)
- softbuilder 14y ago
  Because I'm not in New York! :) Also, I originally wrote it out as s/Canada/(Portland|Austin|Raleigh)/ and then felt like NYC was conspicuously left out. And further realized those other cities could post for themselves.
  - stormbrew 14y ago
    Also you'd confuse sed, it would have no idea which one to replace with. ;)
    - softbuilder 14y ago
      That's true, I was taking literary license with sed. :)

nasalgoat 14y ago

Being in Canada also means flying under the radar, which can be a good thing for long term viability of your product. My company does 100x the traffic of our nearest competitor but you'll never see a TechCrunch article about us, since we're in Toronto. So there's no pressure for overnight success and you can work diligently towards making a better product instead of meeting unreasonable expectations.

wmoxam 14y ago
Being in Toronto has nothing to do with seeing (or not seeing) a TC article about your company. TC covers plenty of Toronto based startups, including the last two that I've worked for. Also, seeing your company on TC isn't all that useful anyways...
- dquail 14y ago
  I think he was using techcrunch write ups as an example. In Canada, there seems to be less time spent focusing on the tech elite echo chamber ... keeping up with the startup benjamins.

schiang 14y ago

> At the end of the day, my advice to Canadian startups is to stay in Canada I think this can apply to many cities outside of the silicon valley bubble.

dquail 14y ago
Yup, you're essentially right (I wrote the post). The gist of the article really could have been "Why you should start your startup outside of the valley" ... but choosing Canada has a few specific advantages I never really delved into with this post ...
- schiang 14y ago
  I agree with so much of what you said in your article. I'm trying to make it in LA for a lot of the same reasons why you're working in Canada.

dmourati 14y ago

"Why Canadian Startups Should Choose Canada over Silicon Valley."

rdl 14y ago

If I were doing something legally challenging in any way related to copyright or privacy/security of consumers (particularly w.r.t. finance), I'd seriously consider (in no particular order) CA CH NZ HK SG various-EU. Curious where Chile and Brazil fall for privacy/security stuff, including AML and general financial regulations. Costa Rica and Panama are the traditional Central American options, and there are the Caribbean or other island/tax haven options, but a lot of those are too small to have developers (and expensive), and will bend over for the US officially or unofficially, particularly if a small business is involved (without political connections); I made the mistake of doing stuff in Anguilla before.

dquail 14y ago

To those complaining about raising money as a Canadian startup. Overly simplified steps: 1. Stop whining. 2. Build something awesome. 3. Spend time on angelist angel.co 4. Spend time on hipmunk.com booking your trip 5. Be thankful you're starting your company in 2013 and not before 2009 when tax laws made it painful for foreign investment, there wasn't a frothy environment in the valley, when fundraising was actually hard, when starting up was way more expensive. 6. Watch the money roll in.

dear 14y ago

So the moral of the story is: if you are a first timer, do it in SV. Once you make enough connections from SV, do it in Canada.

thisisnotatest 14y ago

The author says he chose to start his company in Canada because, "In the Bay Area, investors, friends, and early adopters are so embracing and supportive of new ideas," and this can actually have bad consequences. It's an interesting notion. I have no startup experience, so maybe this is a dumb question, but isn't the solution just, "Take what investors, friends, and early adopters say with a grain of salt"?

dquail 14y ago
Absolutely, that's fantastic solution, and what great entrepreneurs in the valley do. Unfortunately that's easier said than done ... especially given how pervasive the "buzz" can get.

SilconValleyVC 14y ago

As a VC in Silicon Valley I have tremendous respect for the Valley, but I must say (having formerly lived in LA) it sometimes feels like a 1 industry town. In L.A. every and his brother "had a screenplay." "Oh man, can you read my screen play? We're looking to raise a million for this indie film." In Silicon Valley say you're a VC and my lord the way people change, from talking to you casually to looking at you like an addict and you're a bag of heroine they desperately need. Startups CAN actually survive and meet early milestones without us VCs you know. In Canada I'll bet it would be refreshing to "have" to meet those early milestones without being made to feel like a failure just because you're not already "funded." "Are you funded? Yeah, by who?" "You're not funded? Oh bummer." (Person walks away.) So eventually a Canadian entrepreneur may need/want to move to Silicon Valley, but I'll bet they learn alot - and find it alot more refreshing - to start out at first without the non stop "you got a screenplay? you got an agent?" equivalent I see and hear every day and every hour in Silicon Valley. We VCs aren't the be all end all. Happy to take any questions from entrepreneurs.

dquail 14y ago
Absolutely agree (I wrote the post). It's amazed me (but not shocked me) to see so much of the commentary focus on the state (or lack thereof) of VC in Canada. VC can be a means to an end. But it certainly isn't the end ...

j_mack 14y ago

Other than the Dragon's Den show that makes a mockery of early stage entrepreneurs, or "cockroaches" as one panelist likes to refer to them, Canada has failed miserably to participate in the tech scene. From a recent report by the Conference Board of Canada titled "Canada Fails to Put its Money Where its Ideas are—and it Shows in Poor Innovation Grade": "Ottawa, April 4, 2013—Canada ranks second-to-last among its peers in venture capital investment and business R&D spending, according to The Conference Board of Canada’s ranking of innovation among the world’s leading economies. And the rest of the report card doesn’t get much better, as Canada ranks 13th in the 16-country How Canada Performs benchmarking." Google the report if you have any dillusions about doing a startup up in Cantada

Phil_D 14y ago
would be funny if wasn't so true
dquail 14y ago
The state of local VC is only one of many elements to measure startup prospects in a market. Given "the market" is becoming more global, I'd argue "local VC" is becoming moot
- j_mack 14y ago
  The inability to access vc in Cantada is moot, maybe if you're 16 and living with your parents. I suppose Canadian bootstrappers could always mine for bitcoins... that's pretty modern, global too!

dougrenert 14y ago

Not sure if this has been picked up anywhere else in the comments, but I find the Canadian university coop system prepares students there to be entrepreneurs better than anything I've seen in a U.S. university. This requires them to work in an actual JOB. As mentioned, Waterloo grads tend to be stellar, and our best intern to date came out of UBC in a coop (thank you, David Q, for placing him with us!). Why don't U.S. universities run coop programs? My school fought like hell to keep students on campus. I guess they viewed work as destroying the "art" of liberal arts...

dquail 14y ago
Thx Doug. For context, Doug runs TandemEntrepreneurs.com - The valleys leading mobile incubator/investors - which was extremely successful in it's first fund. So this is high praise.