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From someone currently dealing with Excel's CSV writing for a business application, I heartily concur. There is a decade old bug (at least) where the CSV save a

by jrajav 14y ago

From someone currently dealing with Excel's CSV writing for a business application, I heartily concur. There is a decade old bug (at least) where the CSV save as format does not properly handle Unicode, and there's no simple way to handle it down the pipeline. I guess the Office team would rather work on the metro ribbon.

thomasz 14y ago
"Save as CSV" produces text encoded in the users ANSI codepage which is atrocious, Excel 2007+ at least has "Save as Unicode Text" which produces \t separated UTF16 output.
niggler 14y ago
'CSV save as format does not properly handle Unicode' [MS-XLS] ends up using special codepages (e.g. http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP1252.TXT http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOW...) for representing characters, so you need to make sure the same codepage is used through all of your applications. Example: For those that have access to windows and macintosh excel, CHAR(240) is the apple logo on mac but something different on windows.
bjhoops1 14y ago
> I guess the Office team would rather work on the metro ribbon. Zing! Thank you for that.
justincormack 14y ago
Well CSV has no real specification, or way to store metadata eg about encoding. It is a terrible format.
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180
  - justincormack 14y ago
    As I said, no real specification. It reads "This section documents the format that seems to be followed by most implementations". Another part reads "Each field may or may not be enclosed in double quotes (however some programs, such as Microsoft Excel, do not use double quotes at all)." The RFC is a useful collection of anecdotes...
    - anonydsfsfs 14y ago
      The HTTP 1.0 RFC says the same thing: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1945#page-4 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1945#page-4 "This specification describes the features that seem to be consistently implemented in most HTTP/1.0 clients and servers." Is HTTP not a real specification either?
      - justincormack 14y ago
        And then laid down which ones would be used and exactly how, and how to specify that you conform. Http is just describing process of how the spec came about. Because there is no metadata in csv you cannot even say how or if you conform.
- merlincorey 14y ago
  Meet RFC 4180 - http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt (Yes, it's not an internationally recognized standard, but neither is HTTP or IRC)
npsimons 14y ago
I guess the Office team would rather work on the metro ribbon. Of course they would! They've already achieved their goal with Excel: make it a lock-in product. In this case, they did it by breaking CSV compatibility, thereby forcing everyone to use XLSX.

by jrajav 14y ago

thomasz 14y ago

"Save as CSV" produces text encoded in the users ANSI codepage which is atrocious, Excel 2007+ at least has "Save as Unicode Text" which produces \t separated UTF16 output.

niggler 14y ago

'CSV save as format does not properly handle Unicode' [MS-XLS] ends up using special codepages (e.g. http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP1252.TXT http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOW...) for representing characters, so you need to make sure the same codepage is used through all of your applications. Example: For those that have access to windows and macintosh excel, CHAR(240) is the apple logo on mac but something different on windows.

bjhoops1 14y ago

> I guess the Office team would rather work on the metro ribbon. Zing! Thank you for that.

justincormack 14y ago

Well CSV has no real specification, or way to store metadata eg about encoding. It is a terrible format.

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4180
- justincormack 14y ago
  As I said, no real specification. It reads "This section documents the format that seems to be followed by most implementations". Another part reads "Each field may or may not be enclosed in double quotes (however some programs, such as Microsoft Excel, do not use double quotes at all)." The RFC is a useful collection of anecdotes...
  - anonydsfsfs 14y ago
    The HTTP 1.0 RFC says the same thing: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1945#page-4 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1945#page-4 "This specification describes the features that seem to be consistently implemented in most HTTP/1.0 clients and servers." Is HTTP not a real specification either?
    - justincormack 14y ago
      And then laid down which ones would be used and exactly how, and how to specify that you conform. Http is just describing process of how the spec came about. Because there is no metadata in csv you cannot even say how or if you conform.
merlincorey 14y ago
Meet RFC 4180 - http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4180.txt (Yes, it's not an internationally recognized standard, but neither is HTTP or IRC)

npsimons 14y ago

I guess the Office team would rather work on the metro ribbon. Of course they would! They've already achieved their goal with Excel: make it a lock-in product. In this case, they did it by breaking CSV compatibility, thereby forcing everyone to use XLSX.