9 ms·

USCIS Reaches 2014 H-1B Cap

117 points by tidykiwi 13y ago

ultimoo 13y ago
I really hope the USCIS increases these caps in the coming years. It is incredible how much power the computerized lottery system wields to change the lives of candidates who file for H1-B visas. Source: I'm one.
- prostoalex 13y ago
  It's up to the Congress to increase the cap. USCIS just executes on whatever decision they're handed down from the Congress+President.
patothon 13y ago
So basically everyone is holding his/her breath right now? Damn heart pounding. =)
moiiom 13y ago
I'm so stressed… I can't believe I play my future in a lottery.
- patothon 13y ago
  This lottery always amazed me from outside. Now that I applied, I find it awful =)
  - saffer 13y ago
    Yeah ... I guess I'm lucky I'm still in school, so if this fails I can still work on OPT for a year and apply again. Otherwise I'd be asking my employer how difficult it is to transfer to their Canadian office...
WildUtah 13y ago
It's long past time to put these up for bid instead of lottery. Companies that really need talent and will pay fairly for it are being held up by cheap CRUD labor sweatshop employers that file mountains of applications. If we met the serious needs first, measured reasonably well by willingness to pay, there would be more than enough visas. That's in addition to other reforms this program needs like the right to switch jobs.
- pvarangot 13y ago
  Why are you assuming sweatshops usually turn less profit per employee (and hence are willing to pay less for access to adequate labour) that companies that "really need talent"? Would you care to elaborate on what type of companies would fit in both of your categories?
- pslam 13y ago
  A bidding system would inevitably favor businesses with more resources to spend on employment. I'm not sure whether that would end up being a good thing. It's already extremely expensive to hire someone on an H1B visa, despite what myths may have been spread, due to legal and logistical expenses. There is an abuse I have however heard of (sorry no citation): obtaining H1B visas for employees you never intend to bring to the US. This is due to how difficult it is to get work visas to the US, so you end up with an H1B "just in case" you need them to travel. The right to switch jobs is another tricky one. The remit of an H1B is to place a foreign worker in a job role which has been demonstrated to be difficult to fill with a citizen. It does not replace an individual job. You can switch jobs with an H1B so long as the other job is the same job role (very much the same job responsibilities). This seems ok to begin with, but after several years it turns into a shackle because it's difficult for H1B workers, who by their nature are specialists, to switch to another job with the same specialist role. Combine that with the huge amount of time it can take to convert to a green card (5-10 years for some countries), and they're stuck in a job for most of a decade in an era where job hopping is common.
  - geebee 13y ago
    the problem with the "extremely expensive" claim is that you do get a worker who is somewhat captive in a tight labor market. It is inaccurate to claim, as some people do, that H1B holders can't switch jobs, but they do face much greater barriers (they can't just quit, enter a new field, start up their own business or consultancy... even changing to a nearly identical job in the same field requires new sponsorship). If the visa were awarded directly to the immigrant in such a way that an H1B holder had essentially the same job mobility as a green card holder, I'd be more inclined to agree that the process is expensive. After all, you'd be paying big $$ to hire someone who has the right to quit the first day on the job.
jdross 13y ago
It's insane. I have a coworker who is an unbelievably talented and respected developer both at my company and in the open source community. He has been working on a student visa after he graduated from an Ivy League school in computer science last year. That the U.S. is even considering deporting him is batshit crazy to me.
- ultimoo 13y ago
  I had heard second-hand that international employees of reputable companies like Google etc. have preference for H1-B applications or for Green Cards, I forget which. But in case you happen to be working for a (large) well known company, there is a chance that the immigration team could leverage this (if they aren't already) for your co-worker.
  - jdross 13y ago
    We're waiting on the lottery for now, and have our legal team and friends thinking about what to do otherwise. We're a relatively small company (~75) company, so it's quite disruptive.
    - abraham_s 13y ago
      Is there much to be done, except for the OPT extension?
- acgourley 13y ago
  It is insane. Despite getting in by April 1st we're now waiting on the lottery results to see if our first engineering hire can stay in the country. It's going to be extremely disruptive both to him and to us if he can't stay. Stupid.
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    Is the distance between him and your team really going to be that disruptive if he/she needed to work from another country? Seriously people; this is Hacker News. We build things on The Internet. Since when is distance an acceptable excuse of a limitation for team members?
gdonelli 13y ago
looks like 50% chance
vowelless 13y ago
I'm so lucky that I got my visa last year. Then I did a transfer to work at a start up and didn't count in the cap either. Having to worry about potential deportation in addition to the risks of a startup seem like an overkill. I'm probably going to move to Canada if my current startup fails (unlikely that it will). It is much easier to become a resident there. Additionally, I don't want my dating life to influenced by such decisions.
tosseraccount 13y ago
If there's such a shortage, then how come wages are stagnant? Norm Matloff ( http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html ) points out that "The H-1B work visa is fundamentally about cheap, de facto indentured labor." Cringely points out ( http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-about-h-1b-visas-could-hurt-us-all/ http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-... ) that "H-1B visas are about journeyman techies and nothing else." The evidence that the wealthy need more guest workers is just not compelling. We need on the job training and good wages.
- beedogs 13y ago
  Just goes to show, multinationals don't really care about the well-being of the citizens of countries they do business in.
  - alexandros 13y ago
    Define 'care' when a corporation is involved.
PeterisP 13y ago
A big complaint seen about H1B process is that it's used to import cheap workers instead of great workers - i.e., not increasing USA quality, but allowing employers to decrease average wages by replacing supposedly expensive locals with cheaper H1Bs. There can be a simple solution - instead of measuring requirements for "highly qualified workers" by forced advertisements where companies try to get no 'qualified' people to apply, and having an "adequate" salary with the current principle "average of the same job in US", which can be manipulated and abused, why not just set simple absolute criteria? Make sure that H1B positions need to have a salary minimum of, say, $100k (or some fixed multiple of USA median salary to be future-proof). That immediately ensures that (a) H1B's are used for all professions where high skills are needed, without a need to enumerate them in laws; and (b) H1B's are used to import skills instead of cheap labor, as for less-skilled jobs it would be cheaper to hire locally.
- pslam 13y ago
  > A big complaint seen about H1B process is that it's used to import cheap workers instead of great workers - i.e., not increasing USA quality, but allowing employers to decrease average wages. It is illegal to do that. As part of the H1B process, an employer must demonstrate that a temporary H1B worker will be paid the prevailing wage, using the hiring record of others in the same job role. It is extremely expensive to go through the H1B process and certainly not worth it to get "cheap labor". If there's abuse like this, it's certainly not from the big employers, because it would never pass audit and it simply isn't cost effective.
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    I know that is already [supposed to be] illegal, however, there are valid complaints (such as [1]) that this is happening on large scale in a formally legal way. My proposal should hopefully be more resistant to such manipulations. Furthermore, if you have a genuine need to import talent, you should state that you're willing to pay not 'prevailing wage' but above that. [1] http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9215405/H_1B_pay_and_its_impact_on_U.S._workers_is_aired_by_Congress http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9215405/H_1B_pay_and_... quoting "U.S. Rep. Zoe Lofgren, a Democrat whose Congressional district includes Silicon Valley .... the average wage for computer systems analysts in her district is $92,000, but the U.S. government prevailing wage rate for H-1B workers in the same job currently stands at $52,000, or $40,000 less."
helipad 13y ago
The fact that the cap was reached in a week shows you how silly it is.
hurrycane 13y ago
It's insane. So if I'm a truly passionate and talented but I'm not a US citizen I don't get to play with the best because only the first 65k get to do it? I bet most of them are applying to big companies and the percent of startups is really small.
cletus 13y ago
Wow, I had no idea the H1B system reverted to a lottery at some point. I thought it was just a first-come first-served system. That just... sucks. Just a note for those of you who are looking for foreign workers or if you're an Australian citizen: you can get an E3 visa (2 years, multiple entry, renewable ad infinitum). There is a cap for these too but AFAIK it's never been hit (in the 5+ year history). The E3 has two advantages over the H1B: - there is no need to "prove" you can't find a domestic worker for your position; the only step required is the same LCA step H1B applications must do; and - unlike on an H1B, spouses of those on an E3 visa are permitted to work (they get an E3D visa). Also, you don't need to return to your country of origin (being Australia). You can do apply from Canada, the UK or wherever is most convenient (but you do need to leave the country to apply; you can't adjust status while in the US).
- joonix 13y ago
  > (but you do need to leave the country to apply; you can't adjust status while in the US). That's actually not true[1]. You can change status to an E-3 from within the US by filing Form I-129. [1] http://1.usa.gov/boasGi http://1.usa.gov/boasGi
  - axk 13y ago
    Only if you don't intend to leave the country at all. Once you cross the border, even if it's a short weekend trip, you would have to apply for a new E-3 visa again.
    - pacaro 13y ago
      This. This can be a big deal. I changed from L1B to L1A to H1B (without leaving the country) then when I wanted to leave the country the legal advice that I received (IANAL - TIJAA[1]) was that to be safe I should return to my home country to get the new visa stamp, the Vancouver embassy might legitimately decide not to apply it - at which point I'd be stuck in Canada needing a plane ticket to the UK in a hurry and have the possibility of a multi-week wait for an appointment at the London embassy... I waited on my green-card application to get to the point at which I could get an Advanced Parole[2] document and traveled on that instead, but this did mean: a) several years in which I couldn't travel outside the US; b) repeated lectures from border officials that the AP document was for "serious travel" only and that snowboarding trips to Whistler didn't count. YMMV [1] This Is Just An Anecdote [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_parole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_parole
manishsharan 13y ago
fyi - Exemption for U.S. Master's Degree: Under the law the first 20,000 H1B petitions that are filed on behalf of foreign nationals that have earned an advanced degree from a U.S. institution of higher education are exempt from the USCIS H1B quota. This essentially creates a separate pool of 20,000 additional H1B visa numbers each fiscal year that are available only to those foreign nationals who have earned a Master's or higher graduate degree from a US institution of higher education. src :http://www.visapro.com/Immigration-Articles/?a=1090&z=48 http://www.visapro.com/Immigration-Articles/?a=1090&z=48
- krakensden 13y ago
  Which is why there are master's degree mills for the people running bodyshops.
  - tosseraccount 13y ago
    Putting Strayer and Phoenix in charge of immigration is not wise.
  - manishsharan 13y ago
    Check out almost any Comp Sci faculty at any major american university -- you will find a lot of foreigners --- especially Chinese and Indian kids. These universities and those kids have nothing to do with bodyshops. To lump all of them with bodyshoppers is just ignorant.
    - krakensden 13y ago
      My understanding is that those smart kids at the major universities doing computer science aren't getting those H1B visas, and they certainly aren't working at the bodyshops. They're on student visas. The big companies get some, but most of the slots, even for the masters-degree-only section, go to "insourcing" outfits that have the paperwork down to a science, and have a list of colleges with super slightweight (but still accredited) masters degree programs.
- saffer 13y ago
shaohua 13y ago
God. This is depressing. Only 52% of chance getting a Visa. Who wants to buy a 2011 Mini Cooper? I am selling my car and ready to go back to China.
- unreal37 13y ago
  Good luck to you in the lottery, then.
  - eddywebs 13y ago
    Good luck Gentlemen, remember you did your best.
- glasshead969 13y ago
  Its more than 52% because the number includes Higher degree exempt applications. For example if its a 90K + 30K cut, then regular quota has 65% chance and higher degree quota has around 86% chance. I wish you luck.
- robot 13y ago
  I think it is more like %68.5 >>> 85.000 / 124.000 0.6854838709677419
  - c0mpute 13y ago
    Actually more like: 65,000/104,000 = 62.5%, assuming someone is not in Masters quota. Out of the 124k, 20k will be for masters. The remaining masters join the pool of lottery for 65k. So there are 65k spots available for 124k - 20k(=104k)
    - fab101 13y ago
      Just to add, out of 65,000, few visas are reserved for nationals of Chile(1400) and Singapore(5700) due to free trade agreements. These visas are called H1B1 and if unused, apparently they are added to visa cap for next year. Never heard about any increase in the cap (due to unused Chile/S'pore H1B1s) though.
arenaninja 13y ago
I'm not an expert on the subject, but I distinctly remember Oracle's CEO complaining about H1B visas for our graduation speech. It was a stale speech, particularly when their company never even sent a Rep to our school's career fair. It took me months (7) to get a web dev position as a physics major, often because I was perceived as a weaker candidate. My git projects were never even looked at and I was once told to my face that the company doesn't hire physics majors for developer positions. Now, two months on the job, I've fixed runaway JavaScript code that ruined UX on various pages, decreased memory overhead by at least 50% as a starting point and extended a large open source project so it does more for us. These are just the projects out of my own initiative. In the meantime my physics friends are largely unemployed (all but two, me being one of those two) and no company wants any training at all. So forgive me if I'm all out of sympathy for these companies, even if I feel for the global workers affected, but I've seen first-hand the dehumanizing dismissiveness that you are treated with as an entry level dev
- jlarocco 13y ago
  Your story doesn't back up the claims you're making. To be honest, I'm surprised you got any developer position at all with a physics major. If you wanted to do web development, why did you get a physics degree? It's like saying "I want to be a doctor" and then getting a law degree. College is training, and you trained to be an entry level physicist. There are plenty of recent CS grads looking for jobs, and their major is at least somewhat related to the job they're applying for. Yeah, it sucks you had a hard time, but it's not surprising, and it's hard to feel bad for you given the choices you made.
  - arenaninja 13y ago
    Except I'm not looking for sympathy. And your assertion that a CS degree prepares you for real life programming is almost laughable. Plenty of people work in areas that are only peripherally related to their majors without detriment to their trade. Your comparison of web dev to being a doctor tells me your understanding of the trade isn't all that clear.
    - 13y ago
tptacek 13y ago
We were warned months ago that for all intents and purposes, we'd have one day to get H1B paperwork in; the cap was hit almost immediately last year, too.
- eliben 13y ago
  Not true. Last year the cap was reached in mid-June (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ee9f3f93131e7310VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=68439c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f...)
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Are our immigration attorneys crazy, or am I mixing up last year and a year before?
    - c0mpute 13y ago
      eliben is right. Last year the visas were available until June. The year before that it was sometime in November, and the year before that it was sometime in December. But, based on last year's pattern all attorneys predicted it would be reached on April 1st this year. IIRC, it was in 2007/2008 when the cap was reached on day1.
      - zaatar 13y ago
        That is correct, 2007 was the first year this whole mess started, and resulted in the creation of a lottery system. It was the year I got my H1B, and I didn't know until late June - early July if I made it or not ...
c0mpute 13y ago
Sigh, this lottery reminds of those grim years of 2007/08 when the lottery was in effect. The demand then was largely due to the "bodyshopping" companies filing H1s even when they did not have a valid client. USCIS cracked down on them in the following years. Now it appears the general demand for IT has gone up. Here is the distribution of H1-bs amongst companies last year (the cap was filled on June-11th I think). http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx Look at the number of offshoring companies in that list! And look at the average salaries they pay (still higher than the stipulated 60k I think). I am also aware of some of these offshoring companies who file for h1 and then don't bring the person to US in the year (they reserve it for future). There should be some way to weed out these Indian offshorers who file for h1 and never use it. Good luck to all who are hoping to get a H1! (that includes me)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mahyarm 13y ago
This is why bay area tech companies have to start accepting remote work more. It's easier to work with remote workers than to deal with the H-1B cap and waiting until next October. If you must restrict, just keep them within North & South America so you avoid major time zone issues.
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  Lots of companies accept remote workers, but not foreign remote workers. One of my particular pet peeves with StackOverflow's jobs board is the endless parade of remote work with "NO NON-US CITIZENS" at the bottom of the job description.
makmanalp 13y ago
I think a lot of people are confusing the three kinds of applicants of H-1B visas. I don't want people to throw the baby out with the bathwater. * Category 1 is your average small company who found a great foreign engineer and wants to keep them for one reason or the other. These are in the minority. * Category 2 is your Google, Microsoft, etc hiring high quality engineers. * Category 3 is your IT outsourcing / consultancy companies, like WiPro, InfoSys etc. ======= Of H-1B applicants, #3 is overwhelmingly the largest. These companies fill up most of the quota and crowd out the smaller employers. They also pay closest to prevailing wage (i.e. "low" wages). The crappy part is that sometimes they don't even end up using those H-1Bs down the road while people like me lose their chance in the lottery. #1 and especially #2 seem to pay wages that are not really correlated with prevailing wage, they pay what they think an employee is worth. In #2's case this can be multiples above prevailing. A per company limit could help with this, and seems fair to me. This would also distribute the foreign labor better. Not everyone would apply to WiPro et al because they know they're getting a guaranteed visa. Instead smaller companies would get some attention too, and the "h-1b sweat shop" dynamic would be reduced. There are already penalties for being H-1B dependent, but apparently not large enough to be a deterrent. Or maybe smaller companies could be cap exempt, or part of their own cap. It's not like they are threatening to overthrow the US labor market, accounting for maybe 10k jobs a year. Leave them alone. Let the larger multinationals and such deal with expensive legal procedures, since they really have the power to displace American workers. ====== Of the PERM (green card) applicants, the overwhelming majority is #2, followed by #1 and then #3. This tells you how much cat#3 cares about retaining their H-1B workers. For them, I imagine H-1Bs are an incentive for their workers to come work in the US for the lower end of the prevailing wage, and maybe a vague promise for immigration that doesn't get fulfilled very often. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just get an L-1 for your employee (which is even more abusive since it has absolutely no prevailing wage requirements). ====== Another tangential point is that people say that this isn't an enforcement problem but in some respects it is. Prevailing wage is determined not only by your profession / job but also your level in that job. I imagine many companies misrepresent that level and also the job title (programmer instead of software architect, etc) to be able to pay lower. Of course the way the government checks against this is mainly through attestation: you tell them what the job description is and they compare with the description of that level. After that there is 0 enforcement. But I'm not sure if more enforcement is the key, since even the mention of an audit is enough to stop any but the largest companies (with expensive counsel) from hiring H-1Bs. ======== Anyway, hope this gives you guys some perspective. It's not all bad, and not everyone is in the business of undercutting Americans. But reform is definitely needed. People like me are struggling.
stefap2 13y ago
I guess I got lucky. I applied for H1B in 2009 and the annual quota remained open for 280 days that year. I know great number of engineers who were able to stay because of H1Bs. Company has to offer what is a comparable wage in that region for a particular profession.
ttrreeww 13y ago
If there's no H-1B visa, salary for software developers would be reaching Wall Street levels right now...

117 points by tidykiwi 13y ago

I really hope the USCIS increases these caps in the coming years. It is incredible how much power the computerized lottery system wields to change the lives of candidates who file for H1-B visas. Source: I'm one.

prostoalex 13y ago
It's up to the Congress to increase the cap. USCIS just executes on whatever decision they're handed down from the Congress+President.

patothon 13y ago

So basically everyone is holding his/her breath right now? Damn heart pounding. =)

moiiom 13y ago

I'm so stressed… I can't believe I play my future in a lottery.

patothon 13y ago
This lottery always amazed me from outside. Now that I applied, I find it awful =)
- saffer 13y ago
  Yeah ... I guess I'm lucky I'm still in school, so if this fails I can still work on OPT for a year and apply again. Otherwise I'd be asking my employer how difficult it is to transfer to their Canadian office...

WildUtah 13y ago

It's long past time to put these up for bid instead of lottery. Companies that really need talent and will pay fairly for it are being held up by cheap CRUD labor sweatshop employers that file mountains of applications. If we met the serious needs first, measured reasonably well by willingness to pay, there would be more than enough visas. That's in addition to other reforms this program needs like the right to switch jobs.

pvarangot 13y ago
Why are you assuming sweatshops usually turn less profit per employee (and hence are willing to pay less for access to adequate labour) that companies that "really need talent"? Would you care to elaborate on what type of companies would fit in both of your categories?
pslam 13y ago
A bidding system would inevitably favor businesses with more resources to spend on employment. I'm not sure whether that would end up being a good thing. It's already extremely expensive to hire someone on an H1B visa, despite what myths may have been spread, due to legal and logistical expenses. There is an abuse I have however heard of (sorry no citation): obtaining H1B visas for employees you never intend to bring to the US. This is due to how difficult it is to get work visas to the US, so you end up with an H1B "just in case" you need them to travel. The right to switch jobs is another tricky one. The remit of an H1B is to place a foreign worker in a job role which has been demonstrated to be difficult to fill with a citizen. It does not replace an individual job. You can switch jobs with an H1B so long as the other job is the same job role (very much the same job responsibilities). This seems ok to begin with, but after several years it turns into a shackle because it's difficult for H1B workers, who by their nature are specialists, to switch to another job with the same specialist role. Combine that with the huge amount of time it can take to convert to a green card (5-10 years for some countries), and they're stuck in a job for most of a decade in an era where job hopping is common.
- geebee 13y ago
  the problem with the "extremely expensive" claim is that you do get a worker who is somewhat captive in a tight labor market. It is inaccurate to claim, as some people do, that H1B holders can't switch jobs, but they do face much greater barriers (they can't just quit, enter a new field, start up their own business or consultancy... even changing to a nearly identical job in the same field requires new sponsorship). If the visa were awarded directly to the immigrant in such a way that an H1B holder had essentially the same job mobility as a green card holder, I'd be more inclined to agree that the process is expensive. After all, you'd be paying big $$ to hire someone who has the right to quit the first day on the job.

jdross 13y ago

It's insane. I have a coworker who is an unbelievably talented and respected developer both at my company and in the open source community. He has been working on a student visa after he graduated from an Ivy League school in computer science last year. That the U.S. is even considering deporting him is batshit crazy to me.

ultimoo 13y ago
I had heard second-hand that international employees of reputable companies like Google etc. have preference for H1-B applications or for Green Cards, I forget which. But in case you happen to be working for a (large) well known company, there is a chance that the immigration team could leverage this (if they aren't already) for your co-worker.
- jdross 13y ago
  We're waiting on the lottery for now, and have our legal team and friends thinking about what to do otherwise. We're a relatively small company (~75) company, so it's quite disruptive.
  - abraham_s 13y ago
    Is there much to be done, except for the OPT extension?
acgourley 13y ago
It is insane. Despite getting in by April 1st we're now waiting on the lottery results to see if our first engineering hire can stay in the country. It's going to be extremely disruptive both to him and to us if he can't stay. Stupid.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  Is the distance between him and your team really going to be that disruptive if he/she needed to work from another country? Seriously people; this is Hacker News. We build things on The Internet. Since when is distance an acceptable excuse of a limitation for team members?

gdonelli 13y ago

looks like 50% chance

vowelless 13y ago

I'm so lucky that I got my visa last year. Then I did a transfer to work at a start up and didn't count in the cap either. Having to worry about potential deportation in addition to the risks of a startup seem like an overkill. I'm probably going to move to Canada if my current startup fails (unlikely that it will). It is much easier to become a resident there. Additionally, I don't want my dating life to influenced by such decisions.

tosseraccount 13y ago

If there's such a shortage, then how come wages are stagnant? Norm Matloff ( http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html ) points out that "The H-1B work visa is fundamentally about cheap, de facto indentured labor." Cringely points out ( http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-about-h-1b-visas-could-hurt-us-all/ http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-... ) that "H-1B visas are about journeyman techies and nothing else." The evidence that the wealthy need more guest workers is just not compelling. We need on the job training and good wages.

beedogs 13y ago
Just goes to show, multinationals don't really care about the well-being of the citizens of countries they do business in.
- alexandros 13y ago
  Define 'care' when a corporation is involved.

PeterisP 13y ago

A big complaint seen about H1B process is that it's used to import cheap workers instead of great workers - i.e., not increasing USA quality, but allowing employers to decrease average wages by replacing supposedly expensive locals with cheaper H1Bs. There can be a simple solution - instead of measuring requirements for "highly qualified workers" by forced advertisements where companies try to get no 'qualified' people to apply, and having an "adequate" salary with the current principle "average of the same job in US", which can be manipulated and abused, why not just set simple absolute criteria? Make sure that H1B positions need to have a salary minimum of, say, $100k (or some fixed multiple of USA median salary to be future-proof). That immediately ensures that (a) H1B's are used for all professions where high skills are needed, without a need to enumerate them in laws; and (b) H1B's are used to import skills instead of cheap labor, as for less-skilled jobs it would be cheaper to hire locally.

pslam 13y ago
> A big complaint seen about H1B process is that it's used to import cheap workers instead of great workers - i.e., not increasing USA quality, but allowing employers to decrease average wages. It is illegal to do that. As part of the H1B process, an employer must demonstrate that a temporary H1B worker will be paid the prevailing wage, using the hiring record of others in the same job role. It is extremely expensive to go through the H1B process and certainly not worth it to get "cheap labor". If there's abuse like this, it's certainly not from the big employers, because it would never pass audit and it simply isn't cost effective.
- PeterisP 13y ago
  I know that is already [supposed to be] illegal, however, there are valid complaints (such as [1]) that this is happening on large scale in a formally legal way. My proposal should hopefully be more resistant to such manipulations. Furthermore, if you have a genuine need to import talent, you should state that you're willing to pay not 'prevailing wage' but above that. [1] http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9215405/H_1B_pay_and_its_impact_on_U.S._workers_is_aired_by_Congress http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9215405/H_1B_pay_and_... quoting "U.S. Rep. Zoe Lofgren, a Democrat whose Congressional district includes Silicon Valley .... the average wage for computer systems analysts in her district is $92,000, but the U.S. government prevailing wage rate for H-1B workers in the same job currently stands at $52,000, or $40,000 less."

helipad 13y ago

The fact that the cap was reached in a week shows you how silly it is.

hurrycane 13y ago

It's insane. So if I'm a truly passionate and talented but I'm not a US citizen I don't get to play with the best because only the first 65k get to do it? I bet most of them are applying to big companies and the percent of startups is really small.

cletus 13y ago

Wow, I had no idea the H1B system reverted to a lottery at some point. I thought it was just a first-come first-served system. That just... sucks. Just a note for those of you who are looking for foreign workers or if you're an Australian citizen: you can get an E3 visa (2 years, multiple entry, renewable ad infinitum). There is a cap for these too but AFAIK it's never been hit (in the 5+ year history). The E3 has two advantages over the H1B: - there is no need to "prove" you can't find a domestic worker for your position; the only step required is the same LCA step H1B applications must do; and - unlike on an H1B, spouses of those on an E3 visa are permitted to work (they get an E3D visa). Also, you don't need to return to your country of origin (being Australia). You can do apply from Canada, the UK or wherever is most convenient (but you do need to leave the country to apply; you can't adjust status while in the US).

joonix 13y ago
> (but you do need to leave the country to apply; you can't adjust status while in the US). That's actually not true[1]. You can change status to an E-3 from within the US by filing Form I-129. [1] http://1.usa.gov/boasGi http://1.usa.gov/boasGi
- axk 13y ago
  Only if you don't intend to leave the country at all. Once you cross the border, even if it's a short weekend trip, you would have to apply for a new E-3 visa again.
  - pacaro 13y ago
    This. This can be a big deal. I changed from L1B to L1A to H1B (without leaving the country) then when I wanted to leave the country the legal advice that I received (IANAL - TIJAA[1]) was that to be safe I should return to my home country to get the new visa stamp, the Vancouver embassy might legitimately decide not to apply it - at which point I'd be stuck in Canada needing a plane ticket to the UK in a hurry and have the possibility of a multi-week wait for an appointment at the London embassy... I waited on my green-card application to get to the point at which I could get an Advanced Parole[2] document and traveled on that instead, but this did mean: a) several years in which I couldn't travel outside the US; b) repeated lectures from border officials that the AP document was for "serious travel" only and that snowboarding trips to Whistler didn't count. YMMV [1] This Is Just An Anecdote [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_parole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_parole

manishsharan 13y ago

fyi - Exemption for U.S. Master's Degree: Under the law the first 20,000 H1B petitions that are filed on behalf of foreign nationals that have earned an advanced degree from a U.S. institution of higher education are exempt from the USCIS H1B quota. This essentially creates a separate pool of 20,000 additional H1B visa numbers each fiscal year that are available only to those foreign nationals who have earned a Master's or higher graduate degree from a US institution of higher education. src :http://www.visapro.com/Immigration-Articles/?a=1090&z=48 http://www.visapro.com/Immigration-Articles/?a=1090&z=48

krakensden 13y ago
Which is why there are master's degree mills for the people running bodyshops.
- tosseraccount 13y ago
  Putting Strayer and Phoenix in charge of immigration is not wise.
- manishsharan 13y ago
  Check out almost any Comp Sci faculty at any major american university -- you will find a lot of foreigners --- especially Chinese and Indian kids. These universities and those kids have nothing to do with bodyshops. To lump all of them with bodyshoppers is just ignorant.
  - krakensden 13y ago
    My understanding is that those smart kids at the major universities doing computer science aren't getting those H1B visas, and they certainly aren't working at the bodyshops. They're on student visas. The big companies get some, but most of the slots, even for the masters-degree-only section, go to "insourcing" outfits that have the paperwork down to a science, and have a list of colleges with super slightweight (but still accredited) masters degree programs.
saffer 13y ago

shaohua 13y ago

God. This is depressing. Only 52% of chance getting a Visa. Who wants to buy a 2011 Mini Cooper? I am selling my car and ready to go back to China.

unreal37 13y ago
Good luck to you in the lottery, then.
- eddywebs 13y ago
  Good luck Gentlemen, remember you did your best.
glasshead969 13y ago
Its more than 52% because the number includes Higher degree exempt applications. For example if its a 90K + 30K cut, then regular quota has 65% chance and higher degree quota has around 86% chance. I wish you luck.
robot 13y ago
I think it is more like %68.5 >>> 85.000 / 124.000 0.6854838709677419
- c0mpute 13y ago
  Actually more like: 65,000/104,000 = 62.5%, assuming someone is not in Masters quota. Out of the 124k, 20k will be for masters. The remaining masters join the pool of lottery for 65k. So there are 65k spots available for 124k - 20k(=104k)
  - fab101 13y ago
    Just to add, out of 65,000, few visas are reserved for nationals of Chile(1400) and Singapore(5700) due to free trade agreements. These visas are called H1B1 and if unused, apparently they are added to visa cap for next year. Never heard about any increase in the cap (due to unused Chile/S'pore H1B1s) though.

arenaninja 13y ago

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I distinctly remember Oracle's CEO complaining about H1B visas for our graduation speech. It was a stale speech, particularly when their company never even sent a Rep to our school's career fair. It took me months (7) to get a web dev position as a physics major, often because I was perceived as a weaker candidate. My git projects were never even looked at and I was once told to my face that the company doesn't hire physics majors for developer positions. Now, two months on the job, I've fixed runaway JavaScript code that ruined UX on various pages, decreased memory overhead by at least 50% as a starting point and extended a large open source project so it does more for us. These are just the projects out of my own initiative. In the meantime my physics friends are largely unemployed (all but two, me being one of those two) and no company wants any training at all. So forgive me if I'm all out of sympathy for these companies, even if I feel for the global workers affected, but I've seen first-hand the dehumanizing dismissiveness that you are treated with as an entry level dev

jlarocco 13y ago
Your story doesn't back up the claims you're making. To be honest, I'm surprised you got any developer position at all with a physics major. If you wanted to do web development, why did you get a physics degree? It's like saying "I want to be a doctor" and then getting a law degree. College is training, and you trained to be an entry level physicist. There are plenty of recent CS grads looking for jobs, and their major is at least somewhat related to the job they're applying for. Yeah, it sucks you had a hard time, but it's not surprising, and it's hard to feel bad for you given the choices you made.
- arenaninja 13y ago
  Except I'm not looking for sympathy. And your assertion that a CS degree prepares you for real life programming is almost laughable. Plenty of people work in areas that are only peripherally related to their majors without detriment to their trade. Your comparison of web dev to being a doctor tells me your understanding of the trade isn't all that clear.
  - 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago

We were warned months ago that for all intents and purposes, we'd have one day to get H1B paperwork in; the cap was hit almost immediately last year, too.

eliben 13y ago
Not true. Last year the cap was reached in mid-June (http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=ee9f3f93131e7310VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=68439c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f...)
- tptacek 13y ago
  Are our immigration attorneys crazy, or am I mixing up last year and a year before?
  - c0mpute 13y ago
    eliben is right. Last year the visas were available until June. The year before that it was sometime in November, and the year before that it was sometime in December. But, based on last year's pattern all attorneys predicted it would be reached on April 1st this year. IIRC, it was in 2007/2008 when the cap was reached on day1.
    - zaatar 13y ago
      That is correct, 2007 was the first year this whole mess started, and resulted in the creation of a lottery system. It was the year I got my H1B, and I didn't know until late June - early July if I made it or not ...

c0mpute 13y ago

Sigh, this lottery reminds of those grim years of 2007/08 when the lottery was in effect. The demand then was largely due to the "bodyshopping" companies filing H1s even when they did not have a valid client. USCIS cracked down on them in the following years. Now it appears the general demand for IT has gone up. Here is the distribution of H1-bs amongst companies last year (the cap was filled on June-11th I think). http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2013-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx Look at the number of offshoring companies in that list! And look at the average salaries they pay (still higher than the stipulated 60k I think). I am also aware of some of these offshoring companies who file for h1 and then don't bring the person to US in the year (they reserve it for future). There should be some way to weed out these Indian offshorers who file for h1 and never use it. Good luck to all who are hoping to get a H1! (that includes me)

deleted 13y ago

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mahyarm 13y ago

This is why bay area tech companies have to start accepting remote work more. It's easier to work with remote workers than to deal with the H-1B cap and waiting until next October. If you must restrict, just keep them within North & South America so you avoid major time zone issues.

jacques_chester 13y ago
Lots of companies accept remote workers, but not foreign remote workers. One of my particular pet peeves with StackOverflow's jobs board is the endless parade of remote work with "NO NON-US CITIZENS" at the bottom of the job description.

makmanalp 13y ago

I think a lot of people are confusing the three kinds of applicants of H-1B visas. I don't want people to throw the baby out with the bathwater. * Category 1 is your average small company who found a great foreign engineer and wants to keep them for one reason or the other. These are in the minority. * Category 2 is your Google, Microsoft, etc hiring high quality engineers. * Category 3 is your IT outsourcing / consultancy companies, like WiPro, InfoSys etc. ======= Of H-1B applicants, #3 is overwhelmingly the largest. These companies fill up most of the quota and crowd out the smaller employers. They also pay closest to prevailing wage (i.e. "low" wages). The crappy part is that sometimes they don't even end up using those H-1Bs down the road while people like me lose their chance in the lottery. #1 and especially #2 seem to pay wages that are not really correlated with prevailing wage, they pay what they think an employee is worth. In #2's case this can be multiples above prevailing. A per company limit could help with this, and seems fair to me. This would also distribute the foreign labor better. Not everyone would apply to WiPro et al because they know they're getting a guaranteed visa. Instead smaller companies would get some attention too, and the "h-1b sweat shop" dynamic would be reduced. There are already penalties for being H-1B dependent, but apparently not large enough to be a deterrent. Or maybe smaller companies could be cap exempt, or part of their own cap. It's not like they are threatening to overthrow the US labor market, accounting for maybe 10k jobs a year. Leave them alone. Let the larger multinationals and such deal with expensive legal procedures, since they really have the power to displace American workers. ====== Of the PERM (green card) applicants, the overwhelming majority is #2, followed by #1 and then #3. This tells you how much cat#3 cares about retaining their H-1B workers. For them, I imagine H-1Bs are an incentive for their workers to come work in the US for the lower end of the prevailing wage, and maybe a vague promise for immigration that doesn't get fulfilled very often. Otherwise, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just get an L-1 for your employee (which is even more abusive since it has absolutely no prevailing wage requirements). ====== Another tangential point is that people say that this isn't an enforcement problem but in some respects it is. Prevailing wage is determined not only by your profession / job but also your level in that job. I imagine many companies misrepresent that level and also the job title (programmer instead of software architect, etc) to be able to pay lower. Of course the way the government checks against this is mainly through attestation: you tell them what the job description is and they compare with the description of that level. After that there is 0 enforcement. But I'm not sure if more enforcement is the key, since even the mention of an audit is enough to stop any but the largest companies (with expensive counsel) from hiring H-1Bs. ======== Anyway, hope this gives you guys some perspective. It's not all bad, and not everyone is in the business of undercutting Americans. But reform is definitely needed. People like me are struggling.

stefap2 13y ago

I guess I got lucky. I applied for H1B in 2009 and the annual quota remained open for 280 days that year. I know great number of engineers who were able to stay because of H1Bs. Company has to offer what is a comparable wage in that region for a particular profession.

ttrreeww 13y ago

If there's no H-1B visa, salary for software developers would be reaching Wall Street levels right now...