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You're wrong about this. -dairy animals can be chosen based on their long-term milk production (my goats haven't been bred in 2+ years and are still giving mor

You're wrong about this. -dairy animals can be chosen based on their long-term milk production (my goats haven't been bred in 2+ years and are still giving more milk than I know what to do with, and when they are finally bred we have other uses for males around the farm). -I hatch my own chicks and the males are not ground alive (or tossed in trash, or euthanized, or whatever). My chickens get as much love as my dogs do. -Of course it's impossible to produce meat without killing an animal, but it is very much possible to produce meat while caring about the animal immensely and ensuring its quality of life is never compromised (save for the last instant). It is the hardest thing in the world- and it should be. Raising my own animals for meat has changed the way I consume other meat (or rather, the way i DON'T consume other meat) unless I'm sure it has been handled, beginning to end, with the same care and concern that I give my animals. Humane meat is possible without being elitist, expensive, and inhumane, and I take personally your accusation that there's any convenience in it. Attitudes like yours are just one more factor that a small farmer has to deal with in this uphill battle against backwards attitudes towards meat raising and I'd appreciate it if you'd cool it on the propaganda!

eltondegeneres 14y ago
How did your goats initially start lactating? They must have been pregnant at some point and I'm assuming that they were artificially inseminated. I'm also assuming that your male chicks are eventually killed and do not die of old age. Unless you kill and eat your dogs I don't think you can consider the chicks you raise to be pets. Taking an animal's life because you like the taste of their flesh could never be considered caring or kind. I don't think that my opinion is part of a backwards attitude or propaganda. You and I just have different values.
- ndespres 14y ago
  The goats weren't artificially inseminated. They were each studded, birthed a single kid each. I have 2 of them still, and the others were given away to other farmers (before my time). I am however considering starting a beef cattle operation and we'll have to deal with those issues soon. I think the solution is quality dual-purpose breeds (which is the solution for chickens) so that males can be eaten rather than destroyed. I don't know about you personally, but many people I have encountered who abhor the idea of eating meat have based their values on the state of the existing factory farming system- which is fine, opt out if you have to. But when given a choice to do it properly, it needs to be understood that it IS possible.
redblacktree 14y ago
Thank you for this. Moral absolutism with respect to killing animals for meat doesn't advance the conversation; it just gives vegans a way to feel superior. You seem to understand that what matters (to many people) is the quality of life for the living animal. A note to all hard-line vegans: If you want to do something to improve the welfare of the animals we raise for meat, engage people in discussions of humane farming practices w.r.t. livestock. Most meat-eaters you talk to aren't ready to give it up. So ask yourself: Would you rather live in a world of factory farms, or a world where animals are raised and slaughtered in the most humane way we can manage? Give up on the idea that you'll convert everyone you meet to a vegan, and you can still do a lot of good in this world. When you take hard-line stances like the poster above, you alienate your meat-eating audience and end the conversation.
- eltondegeneres 14y ago
  Ending chattel slavery probably didn't seem that feasible to abolitionists in 1820s United States. That doesn't mean they would have gained anything by compromising though. Advocating for welfare reforms rather than abolition sends mixed messages and suggests that there is a tolerable level of (to put it bluntly) exploitation.
  - redblacktree 14y ago
    I guess we'll be forced to stick with the status quo, then. Politics requires compromise. Not everyone's moral yardstick is the same as yours. I don't think you would find a great many people who would think that the slave analogy is appropriate, so the only option I have left is to exclude you from the conversation. You're in a very small minority when you equate the rights of animals to the rights of a human.
moskie 14y ago
> quality of life is never compromised (save for the last instant). It is the hardest thing in the world- and it should be. You seem to understand, and admit, that you're doing something wrong. So: why do it? What is your justification for doing it?
- ndespres 14y ago
  I'm not admitting to doing anything wrong. I'm taking my role in my own food production and consumption with the weight it deserves. I'm further accepting my role in the food cycle, and realizing that things die at every stage of food production- even "vegan" food production, whether it's insects that must be removed from crops, animals displaced by tillage, fertilizers made from fish emulsion, and the squirrels that the semi trucks run over on their way to deliver pallets of Veggie Burgers to Whole Foods... and deciding that all things considered, meat is possible, ethically and at a lower environmental impact than the alternatives.
  - moskie 14y ago
    But when you say it's the "hardest thing in the world," what does that mean? Why is it hard?
    - ndespres 14y ago
      If someone can kill an animal that they've raised from birth and cared for each day- without wincing, without feeling it in their heart for days- I don't want to buy meat from that person.
      - moskie 14y ago
        I apologize for belaboring the point here, but... you're avoiding answering the question about why it's hard, why you have these feelings. To be more direct: I can't help but think that the reason you have these feelings is that you feel guilt for doing something wrong in regards to the animal(s) in question. I think I've had similar feelings, after learning what goes on in typical farms, and my ultimate reaction to that emotion has been to be vegan as much as I can. So I'm just trying to wrap my head around what your reaction is. (FWIW, I feel compelled to say that I understand the opportunity to be vegan is a privilege. One that I am able to afford in the city where I live. I don't begrudge anyone who can't be vegan due to lack of access to reasonable vegan options.)

eltondegeneres 14y ago

How did your goats initially start lactating? They must have been pregnant at some point and I'm assuming that they were artificially inseminated. I'm also assuming that your male chicks are eventually killed and do not die of old age. Unless you kill and eat your dogs I don't think you can consider the chicks you raise to be pets. Taking an animal's life because you like the taste of their flesh could never be considered caring or kind. I don't think that my opinion is part of a backwards attitude or propaganda. You and I just have different values.

ndespres 14y ago
The goats weren't artificially inseminated. They were each studded, birthed a single kid each. I have 2 of them still, and the others were given away to other farmers (before my time). I am however considering starting a beef cattle operation and we'll have to deal with those issues soon. I think the solution is quality dual-purpose breeds (which is the solution for chickens) so that males can be eaten rather than destroyed. I don't know about you personally, but many people I have encountered who abhor the idea of eating meat have based their values on the state of the existing factory farming system- which is fine, opt out if you have to. But when given a choice to do it properly, it needs to be understood that it IS possible.

redblacktree 14y ago

Thank you for this. Moral absolutism with respect to killing animals for meat doesn't advance the conversation; it just gives vegans a way to feel superior. You seem to understand that what matters (to many people) is the quality of life for the living animal. A note to all hard-line vegans: If you want to do something to improve the welfare of the animals we raise for meat, engage people in discussions of humane farming practices w.r.t. livestock. Most meat-eaters you talk to aren't ready to give it up. So ask yourself: Would you rather live in a world of factory farms, or a world where animals are raised and slaughtered in the most humane way we can manage? Give up on the idea that you'll convert everyone you meet to a vegan, and you can still do a lot of good in this world. When you take hard-line stances like the poster above, you alienate your meat-eating audience and end the conversation.

eltondegeneres 14y ago
Ending chattel slavery probably didn't seem that feasible to abolitionists in 1820s United States. That doesn't mean they would have gained anything by compromising though. Advocating for welfare reforms rather than abolition sends mixed messages and suggests that there is a tolerable level of (to put it bluntly) exploitation.
- redblacktree 14y ago
  I guess we'll be forced to stick with the status quo, then. Politics requires compromise. Not everyone's moral yardstick is the same as yours. I don't think you would find a great many people who would think that the slave analogy is appropriate, so the only option I have left is to exclude you from the conversation. You're in a very small minority when you equate the rights of animals to the rights of a human.

moskie 14y ago

> quality of life is never compromised (save for the last instant). It is the hardest thing in the world- and it should be. You seem to understand, and admit, that you're doing something wrong. So: why do it? What is your justification for doing it?

ndespres 14y ago
I'm not admitting to doing anything wrong. I'm taking my role in my own food production and consumption with the weight it deserves. I'm further accepting my role in the food cycle, and realizing that things die at every stage of food production- even "vegan" food production, whether it's insects that must be removed from crops, animals displaced by tillage, fertilizers made from fish emulsion, and the squirrels that the semi trucks run over on their way to deliver pallets of Veggie Burgers to Whole Foods... and deciding that all things considered, meat is possible, ethically and at a lower environmental impact than the alternatives.
- moskie 14y ago
  But when you say it's the "hardest thing in the world," what does that mean? Why is it hard?
  - ndespres 14y ago
    If someone can kill an animal that they've raised from birth and cared for each day- without wincing, without feeling it in their heart for days- I don't want to buy meat from that person.
    - moskie 14y ago
      I apologize for belaboring the point here, but... you're avoiding answering the question about why it's hard, why you have these feelings. To be more direct: I can't help but think that the reason you have these feelings is that you feel guilt for doing something wrong in regards to the animal(s) in question. I think I've had similar feelings, after learning what goes on in typical farms, and my ultimate reaction to that emotion has been to be vegan as much as I can. So I'm just trying to wrap my head around what your reaction is. (FWIW, I feel compelled to say that I understand the opportunity to be vegan is a privilege. One that I am able to afford in the city where I live. I don't begrudge anyone who can't be vegan due to lack of access to reasonable vegan options.)