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Americans have this persistent idea that their Constitution is somehow superior to the constitutions of other industrialized liberal democracies, when the reali

Americans have this persistent idea that their Constitution is somehow superior to the constitutions of other industrialized liberal democracies, when the reality is that the American system, notwithstanding amendments to fix certain practical failures, remains essentially stuck in 18th century ideas about liberty and governance.

philwelch 14y ago
Yes, it's a pity we never did things like make "hate speech" exceptions to freedom of speech, ban firearms, abolish double jeopardy, or revoke this silly notion that you're not required to talk to the police. The only problem with the American constitution is that the federal government isn't very good at following it. Other than that, it's far more liberal than most liberal democracies even try to get away with.
- RyanMcGreal 14y ago
  This is exactly what I'm talking about. The US has no monopoly on the right to free expression, silence when talking to the police, protection against double jeopardy and so on. It is a peculiar kind of American exceptionalism that imagines other liberal democracies suffer under quasi-tyrannical legal systems by comparison. The US Constitution's protection of the right to firearms, which actually is an outlier among liberal democracies, is also a case in point of its essentially 18th century conception of rights and governance. The Second Amendment is based on the quaint idea that individual liberties can only be secured through the constant threat of civilian rebellion and violence against the government. Nearly every other liberal democracy regulates and restricts ownership and use of firearms far more than the US does, and those countries have no more fallen into tyranny than the US has - in fact, those countries tend to have governments that are more responsive and accountable to their citizens than the US, in addition to having rates of gun violence that are orders of magnitude lower. I would respectfully submit that the common American assumption that the government cannot be trusted to do anything right is self-fulfilling.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    > I would respectfully submit that the common American assumption that the government cannot be trusted to do anything right is self-fulfilling. This, pretty much. It has bottomed out civic participation such that the majority of civic participation comes from businesses whose engagement is about gaming the system. I admittedly do not have stats to back that sentence up, but I suspect I could find them.
  - JohnBooty 14y ago
    > I would respectfully submit that the common > American assumption that the government cannot > be trusted to do anything right is self-fulfilling Yes. American here, and I feel the "self-fulfilling" aspect is key and is often overlooked. With such a significant portion of the country deeply suspicious of government, we steer away from government in the name of "freedom" but actually just place more power in corporations' hands. I feel as though our country is (perhaps stuck in) our awkward teenage years. You know how teenagers often resist anything teachers and parents tell them? We rail against government just because we can regardless of whether or not it's actually a good idea. In our defense, the last two presidential elections have shown a willingness of the country (particularly among younger voters) to begin to move away from some of the mistrust in government.
    - ams6110 14y ago
      In our defense, the last two presidential elections have shown a willingness of the country (particularly among younger voters) to begin to move away from some of the mistrust in government. Sometimes people just have to learn things the hard way.
  - snowwrestler 14y ago
    > I would respectfully submit that the common American assumption that the government cannot be trusted to do anything right is self-fulfilling. Americans do not actually think this. The highway system, environmental protections, labor laws, the military, Medicare, and Social Security are all extremely popular. What Americans actually believe is that government actions should not be trusted merely because they are government actions. The fundamental concept of American governance is that the people are sovereign, not the government. This was a radical notion in the 18th century, and I would argue that is remains so today, given the number of folks who can't seem to wrap their heads around it. For example, gun ownership is not based on the right to rebel--no such right exists (see: the Civil War). Americans have the right to own guns because Americans want to own guns, and Americans are in charge. We get to decide what we want to do and when we want to do it. The role of government is not to rule the people, but to adjudicate peacefully between the many different opinions that people freely hold. The 2nd Amendment is still in force today not because it is old, but because the American people, today, want it to remain in force.
- mindslight 14y ago
  > The only problem with the American constitution is that the federal government isn't very good at following it In other words, the Constitution has failed at its fundamental purpose - controlling the federal government. Not that there are any political remedies - this would just spread the cancer faster. Pride blinds. The more we insist our well-built ship cannot possibly be sinking, the less inclined we are to look for the lifeboats.
- makomk 14y ago
  Exactly! Sure, the Supreme Court ruled that it was fine to prohibit a vast swathe of political speech, including pro-communist and anti-draft speech, but the moment - the very moment! - they realised that ruling could also be used to shut down groups like the KKK which actually murdered and terrorised black Americans they promptly reversed their ruling, making sure that hate speech was given the full Constitutional protection it so obviously deserved.
zanny 14y ago
I'd argue they are 19th century, since they were the first in a long line of democratic (r)evolutions. But they are still outdated. <Insert the Thomas Jefferson quote about having a new constitution every generation>
- solistice 14y ago
  That's not entirely right. The American Revolution and the Founding Fathers borrowed some ideas from the French Revolution, which would make that revolution the first in line. Yes, it was major, but it wasn't the first.
  - carbocation 14y ago
    The French Revolution comes a full 13 years after the American Declaration of Independence, 2 years after the adoption of the US Constitution, and several months after the US Constitution was ratified and went into effect.
    - Locke1689 14y ago
      This should be obvious, given that the primary backer to the American Revolutionary War was the French monarchy. grumble grumble kids these days...
    - solistice 14y ago
      Then either my history teacher told me something absurdly wrong or I simply remebered it the wrong way round. I'm really sorry about that.
      - carbocation 14y ago
        Either way, it's nothing to worry about. Don't let this hold you back from participating in the future, by the way. Being wrong sometimes is a powerful motivator for learning.
  - thisrod 14y ago
dsfasfasf 14y ago
For your comment to not come off as xenophobic you need to provide examples and counter-examples. Otherwise your comment is not constructive and is pure vitriol.
- peejaybee 14y ago
  I dunno, it seemed like pretty highly-diluted vitriol to me.
snowwrestler 14y ago
Ideas don't get old, like fruit left on the counter. They're still with us because they are still good.

philwelch 14y ago

Yes, it's a pity we never did things like make "hate speech" exceptions to freedom of speech, ban firearms, abolish double jeopardy, or revoke this silly notion that you're not required to talk to the police. The only problem with the American constitution is that the federal government isn't very good at following it. Other than that, it's far more liberal than most liberal democracies even try to get away with.

RyanMcGreal 14y ago
This is exactly what I'm talking about. The US has no monopoly on the right to free expression, silence when talking to the police, protection against double jeopardy and so on. It is a peculiar kind of American exceptionalism that imagines other liberal democracies suffer under quasi-tyrannical legal systems by comparison. The US Constitution's protection of the right to firearms, which actually is an outlier among liberal democracies, is also a case in point of its essentially 18th century conception of rights and governance. The Second Amendment is based on the quaint idea that individual liberties can only be secured through the constant threat of civilian rebellion and violence against the government. Nearly every other liberal democracy regulates and restricts ownership and use of firearms far more than the US does, and those countries have no more fallen into tyranny than the US has - in fact, those countries tend to have governments that are more responsive and accountable to their citizens than the US, in addition to having rates of gun violence that are orders of magnitude lower. I would respectfully submit that the common American assumption that the government cannot be trusted to do anything right is self-fulfilling.
- saraid216 14y ago
  > I would respectfully submit that the common American assumption that the government cannot be trusted to do anything right is self-fulfilling. This, pretty much. It has bottomed out civic participation such that the majority of civic participation comes from businesses whose engagement is about gaming the system. I admittedly do not have stats to back that sentence up, but I suspect I could find them.
- JohnBooty 14y ago
  > I would respectfully submit that the common > American assumption that the government cannot > be trusted to do anything right is self-fulfilling Yes. American here, and I feel the "self-fulfilling" aspect is key and is often overlooked. With such a significant portion of the country deeply suspicious of government, we steer away from government in the name of "freedom" but actually just place more power in corporations' hands. I feel as though our country is (perhaps stuck in) our awkward teenage years. You know how teenagers often resist anything teachers and parents tell them? We rail against government just because we can regardless of whether or not it's actually a good idea. In our defense, the last two presidential elections have shown a willingness of the country (particularly among younger voters) to begin to move away from some of the mistrust in government.
  - ams6110 14y ago
    In our defense, the last two presidential elections have shown a willingness of the country (particularly among younger voters) to begin to move away from some of the mistrust in government. Sometimes people just have to learn things the hard way.
- snowwrestler 14y ago
  > I would respectfully submit that the common American assumption that the government cannot be trusted to do anything right is self-fulfilling. Americans do not actually think this. The highway system, environmental protections, labor laws, the military, Medicare, and Social Security are all extremely popular. What Americans actually believe is that government actions should not be trusted merely because they are government actions. The fundamental concept of American governance is that the people are sovereign, not the government. This was a radical notion in the 18th century, and I would argue that is remains so today, given the number of folks who can't seem to wrap their heads around it. For example, gun ownership is not based on the right to rebel--no such right exists (see: the Civil War). Americans have the right to own guns because Americans want to own guns, and Americans are in charge. We get to decide what we want to do and when we want to do it. The role of government is not to rule the people, but to adjudicate peacefully between the many different opinions that people freely hold. The 2nd Amendment is still in force today not because it is old, but because the American people, today, want it to remain in force.
mindslight 14y ago
> The only problem with the American constitution is that the federal government isn't very good at following it In other words, the Constitution has failed at its fundamental purpose - controlling the federal government. Not that there are any political remedies - this would just spread the cancer faster. Pride blinds. The more we insist our well-built ship cannot possibly be sinking, the less inclined we are to look for the lifeboats.
makomk 14y ago
Exactly! Sure, the Supreme Court ruled that it was fine to prohibit a vast swathe of political speech, including pro-communist and anti-draft speech, but the moment - the very moment! - they realised that ruling could also be used to shut down groups like the KKK which actually murdered and terrorised black Americans they promptly reversed their ruling, making sure that hate speech was given the full Constitutional protection it so obviously deserved.

zanny 14y ago

I'd argue they are 19th century, since they were the first in a long line of democratic (r)evolutions. But they are still outdated. <Insert the Thomas Jefferson quote about having a new constitution every generation>

solistice 14y ago
That's not entirely right. The American Revolution and the Founding Fathers borrowed some ideas from the French Revolution, which would make that revolution the first in line. Yes, it was major, but it wasn't the first.
- carbocation 14y ago
  The French Revolution comes a full 13 years after the American Declaration of Independence, 2 years after the adoption of the US Constitution, and several months after the US Constitution was ratified and went into effect.
  - Locke1689 14y ago
    This should be obvious, given that the primary backer to the American Revolutionary War was the French monarchy. grumble grumble kids these days...
  - solistice 14y ago
    Then either my history teacher told me something absurdly wrong or I simply remebered it the wrong way round. I'm really sorry about that.
    - carbocation 14y ago
      Either way, it's nothing to worry about. Don't let this hold you back from participating in the future, by the way. Being wrong sometimes is a powerful motivator for learning.
- thisrod 14y ago

dsfasfasf 14y ago

For your comment to not come off as xenophobic you need to provide examples and counter-examples. Otherwise your comment is not constructive and is pure vitriol.

peejaybee 14y ago
I dunno, it seemed like pretty highly-diluted vitriol to me.

snowwrestler 14y ago

Ideas don't get old, like fruit left on the counter. They're still with us because they are still good.