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Reasons why translations are never simple #5322, Polish edition: "You have won..." -> "Właśnie wygrałeś..." Wygrałeś is fine if the player's a man. Otherwise,

Reasons why translations are never simple #5322, Polish edition: "You have won..." -> "Właśnie wygrałeś..." Wygrałeś is fine if the player's a man. Otherwise, for a woman, wygrałeś needs an A instead of the E: wygrałAś There are lots of pitfalls like this in Slavic languages, and I imagine in many others. Speaking as an English developer, the first time you implement a proper translation can be a painful - not to mention enlightening - experience.

kalleboo 14y ago
So does all Polish software ask for you gender the first thing you do when you log in?
- mootothemax 14y ago
  So does all Polish software ask for you gender the first thing you do when you log in? I don't know - one of these days I'll finally get the guts to change my laptop's language to Polish. Fortunately, this rule only applies to the past and future tenses, so you're safe if you can keep to present tense. The only translations I've worked with have been Facebook-based, where, by and large, the person's gender is already known. Elsewhere, I've seen things written in a bit of a hacky manner, e.g. the above written as: Właśnie wygrałeś/aś.
  - wielebny 14y ago
    It's quite common to write in asexual form, like 'Wygrana!'. Also there are a lot more pitfalls regarding slavic languages, for example in polish, there are few plural forms (2 users, 8 users = 2 użytkownicy, 8 użytkowników, etc).
    - mootothemax 14y ago
      It's quite common to write in asexual form, like 'Wygrana!'. Isn't "Wygrana" just the noun, rather than a verb? So the nearest equivalent in English would be "Win!" rather than "You Won"? When you first mentioned "asexual form," I was thinking something like "Wygrało," but "It Won!" sounds a bit impersonal to me. Not sure whether that's better or worse than assuming the reader's male. Also there are a lot more pitfalls regarding slavic languages, for example in polish, there are few plural forms That's an incredibly fun one. If it ends in 2, 3 or 4 and isn't 12, 13 or 14, you use the nominative plural ending, otherwise the genitive plural ending. At least... I think that's for nouns in nominative and accusative cases, right? My head quickly starts spinning when I think about these.
      - ajuc 14y ago
        "Wygrało" would be incorrect (it should be "Wygrałoś" in this case, and even then it's only grammaticaly correct if you communicate with small kid, and sounds very weird even then). You can also say this using "person" - "Osobo używająca ten program - wygrałaś" ("To person, who is using this software - you have won"), "Osoba" is always female, and can mean anybody. But this is very formal and weird, too.
        mootothemax 14y ago
        Wygrałoś Wow, that's a completely new form to me! Do you know any examples of where I can find it - or even a description - as my usual online sources are failing me :) I like your word-hack using Osoba! I'm loving learning Polish, it's a real eye-opener about how languages can work.
        ajuc 14y ago
        "Wygrałoś" (You-neutral have won) is made from "wygrało" (It have won) in the same way "wygrałaś"(You-female have won) is made from "wygrała"(She have won), or "Wygrałeś"(You-male have won) is made from "wygrał"(he have won). In Polish kid is neutral gender, so you theorethically could use "wygrałoś" when speaking with a kid. But nobody uses that, so it sounds strange ven for native speakers. I don't remember ever hearing it.
        mootothemax 14y ago
        But nobody uses that, so it sounds strange ven for native speakers. I don't remember ever hearing it. Heh, I was just curious as I hadn't seen that form anywhere :) That said, the Polish Wiktionary wygrać entry (http://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/wygra%C4%87 http://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/wygra%C4%87) lists it and a couple of other new-to-me ones as "forma potencjalna", so I guess it's possible in theory, but as you say, just not used.
        ajuc 14y ago
        And obviously I declined "program" wrong, should be: "Osobo używająca tego programu - wygrałaś".
  - kolinko 14y ago
    I'm from Poland, and I've got quite a lot experience in using Polish software. Using male forms is the norm, nobody writes "wygrałeś/aś" within the software. Americans might consider it sexist, but it's the only practical solution to the issue. So, "Właśnie wygrałeś" is actually correct.
    - mootothemax 14y ago
      I'm from Poland, and I've got quite a lot experience in using Polish software. Using male forms is the norm, nobody writes "wygrałeś/aś" within the software. I can't speak for proper games you run on a laptop, but I've seen that form in several places. Admittedly, it could well have stood out to me as I wondered "What on earth..." Americans might consider it sexist, but it's the only practical solution to the issue. Heh, on a separate but kinda-related note, I wonder how much of this is related to some of Polish's other grammatical rules? If a group of women were in a pub last night, they could say byłyśmy, but if there was a single man there, it becomes byliśmy. It seems that there are one set of grammatical rules for women, children and animals, and another set for men. It's fascinating!
podperson 14y ago
The correct approach would be to find a pronounless substitute if possible, e.g. Winnings.
ajuc 14y ago
Genders in Polish are easy (but you can't say almost anything without also specyfying your gender, except in a very contrived, formal way). Numbers are even harder ;) I have: 1 apple = "Mam 1 jabłko" 2-4 apples = "Mam 2-4 jabłka" 5-21 apples = "Mam 5-21 jabłek" 22-24 apples = "Mam 22-24 jabłka" 25-31 apples = "Mam 25-31 jabłek" etc. Also "one" = "jeden", "jedno", "jednego", "jednych", "jedni", ... there's different version for almost all combinantions of plurality, grammatical case, and gender. "I have one apple" = "Mam jedno jabłko" "I don't have apple" = "Nie mam jednego jabłka" Nobody expects software to get it right.
- mootothemax 14y ago
  "I have one apple" = "Mam jedno jabłko" vs "I don't have apple" = "Nie mam jednego jabłka" Heh, this one of my favourite rules to show off with, as it appears more complicated than it is. If you're negating a sentence with this structure, you always use the genitive case, hence jednego jabłka. Or, as I was briefly annoyed to be told this lunchtime, nie ma żadnego makaronu. (Although maybe my memory's already failing me - would it be żadnych makaronów?) Nobody expects software to get it right. But it'd feel so good to get it right! :) (one of these days, I will manage to decline a sentence of more than five words correctly!)
  - dhucerbin 14y ago
    It depends on the meaning of makaron ;) "Spaghetti with meatballs, please" -> nie ma (już) makaronu, because makaron is uncountable here. "Do you have spaghetti or farfalle?" -> nie ma żadnego makaronu. Here makaron is countable as types of pasta. I'would be glad to answer any questions about Polish language. My Polish is far better than my English, as you see.
- tibbon 14y ago
  For counting, is that similar to a 'couple', 'few', 'handful' in english?
  - ajuc 14y ago
    I don't understand what you mean (I'm not really good with English). In Polish every noun changes with the number in the way I've show. When you count up, you use numbers in abstract wihout the noun, so no noun to change ending. If you mean the ranges, it's strict in Polish - 1 has one ending for noun, 2-4, 22-24, 32-34, 42-44, etc have other, and all the others have another ending. I don't know how the ranges for "few", "a couple" etcare defined in English. I've heard that this strange system in Polish comes from the times Polish had 3 possible pluralities: singular, dual and plural, but I might be wrong about that.

kalleboo 14y ago

So does all Polish software ask for you gender the first thing you do when you log in?

mootothemax 14y ago
So does all Polish software ask for you gender the first thing you do when you log in? I don't know - one of these days I'll finally get the guts to change my laptop's language to Polish. Fortunately, this rule only applies to the past and future tenses, so you're safe if you can keep to present tense. The only translations I've worked with have been Facebook-based, where, by and large, the person's gender is already known. Elsewhere, I've seen things written in a bit of a hacky manner, e.g. the above written as: Właśnie wygrałeś/aś.
- wielebny 14y ago
  It's quite common to write in asexual form, like 'Wygrana!'. Also there are a lot more pitfalls regarding slavic languages, for example in polish, there are few plural forms (2 users, 8 users = 2 użytkownicy, 8 użytkowników, etc).
  - mootothemax 14y ago
    It's quite common to write in asexual form, like 'Wygrana!'. Isn't "Wygrana" just the noun, rather than a verb? So the nearest equivalent in English would be "Win!" rather than "You Won"? When you first mentioned "asexual form," I was thinking something like "Wygrało," but "It Won!" sounds a bit impersonal to me. Not sure whether that's better or worse than assuming the reader's male. Also there are a lot more pitfalls regarding slavic languages, for example in polish, there are few plural forms That's an incredibly fun one. If it ends in 2, 3 or 4 and isn't 12, 13 or 14, you use the nominative plural ending, otherwise the genitive plural ending. At least... I think that's for nouns in nominative and accusative cases, right? My head quickly starts spinning when I think about these.
    - ajuc 14y ago
      "Wygrało" would be incorrect (it should be "Wygrałoś" in this case, and even then it's only grammaticaly correct if you communicate with small kid, and sounds very weird even then). You can also say this using "person" - "Osobo używająca ten program - wygrałaś" ("To person, who is using this software - you have won"), "Osoba" is always female, and can mean anybody. But this is very formal and weird, too.
      - mootothemax 14y ago
        Wygrałoś Wow, that's a completely new form to me! Do you know any examples of where I can find it - or even a description - as my usual online sources are failing me :) I like your word-hack using Osoba! I'm loving learning Polish, it's a real eye-opener about how languages can work.
        ajuc 14y ago
        "Wygrałoś" (You-neutral have won) is made from "wygrało" (It have won) in the same way "wygrałaś"(You-female have won) is made from "wygrała"(She have won), or "Wygrałeś"(You-male have won) is made from "wygrał"(he have won). In Polish kid is neutral gender, so you theorethically could use "wygrałoś" when speaking with a kid. But nobody uses that, so it sounds strange ven for native speakers. I don't remember ever hearing it.
        mootothemax 14y ago
        But nobody uses that, so it sounds strange ven for native speakers. I don't remember ever hearing it. Heh, I was just curious as I hadn't seen that form anywhere :) That said, the Polish Wiktionary wygrać entry (http://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/wygra%C4%87 http://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/wygra%C4%87) lists it and a couple of other new-to-me ones as "forma potencjalna", so I guess it's possible in theory, but as you say, just not used.
      - ajuc 14y ago
        And obviously I declined "program" wrong, should be: "Osobo używająca tego programu - wygrałaś".
- kolinko 14y ago
  I'm from Poland, and I've got quite a lot experience in using Polish software. Using male forms is the norm, nobody writes "wygrałeś/aś" within the software. Americans might consider it sexist, but it's the only practical solution to the issue. So, "Właśnie wygrałeś" is actually correct.
  - mootothemax 14y ago
    I'm from Poland, and I've got quite a lot experience in using Polish software. Using male forms is the norm, nobody writes "wygrałeś/aś" within the software. I can't speak for proper games you run on a laptop, but I've seen that form in several places. Admittedly, it could well have stood out to me as I wondered "What on earth..." Americans might consider it sexist, but it's the only practical solution to the issue. Heh, on a separate but kinda-related note, I wonder how much of this is related to some of Polish's other grammatical rules? If a group of women were in a pub last night, they could say byłyśmy, but if there was a single man there, it becomes byliśmy. It seems that there are one set of grammatical rules for women, children and animals, and another set for men. It's fascinating!

podperson 14y ago

The correct approach would be to find a pronounless substitute if possible, e.g. Winnings.

ajuc 14y ago

Genders in Polish are easy (but you can't say almost anything without also specyfying your gender, except in a very contrived, formal way). Numbers are even harder ;) I have: 1 apple = "Mam 1 jabłko" 2-4 apples = "Mam 2-4 jabłka" 5-21 apples = "Mam 5-21 jabłek" 22-24 apples = "Mam 22-24 jabłka" 25-31 apples = "Mam 25-31 jabłek" etc. Also "one" = "jeden", "jedno", "jednego", "jednych", "jedni", ... there's different version for almost all combinantions of plurality, grammatical case, and gender. "I have one apple" = "Mam jedno jabłko" "I don't have apple" = "Nie mam jednego jabłka" Nobody expects software to get it right.

mootothemax 14y ago
"I have one apple" = "Mam jedno jabłko" vs "I don't have apple" = "Nie mam jednego jabłka" Heh, this one of my favourite rules to show off with, as it appears more complicated than it is. If you're negating a sentence with this structure, you always use the genitive case, hence jednego jabłka. Or, as I was briefly annoyed to be told this lunchtime, nie ma żadnego makaronu. (Although maybe my memory's already failing me - would it be żadnych makaronów?) Nobody expects software to get it right. But it'd feel so good to get it right! :) (one of these days, I will manage to decline a sentence of more than five words correctly!)
- dhucerbin 14y ago
  It depends on the meaning of makaron ;) "Spaghetti with meatballs, please" -> nie ma (już) makaronu, because makaron is uncountable here. "Do you have spaghetti or farfalle?" -> nie ma żadnego makaronu. Here makaron is countable as types of pasta. I'would be glad to answer any questions about Polish language. My Polish is far better than my English, as you see.
tibbon 14y ago
For counting, is that similar to a 'couple', 'few', 'handful' in english?
- ajuc 14y ago
  I don't understand what you mean (I'm not really good with English). In Polish every noun changes with the number in the way I've show. When you count up, you use numbers in abstract wihout the noun, so no noun to change ending. If you mean the ranges, it's strict in Polish - 1 has one ending for noun, 2-4, 22-24, 32-34, 42-44, etc have other, and all the others have another ending. I don't know how the ranges for "few", "a couple" etcare defined in English. I've heard that this strange system in Polish comes from the times Polish had 3 possible pluralities: singular, dual and plural, but I might be wrong about that.