6 ms·

I have to disagree with this. I dropped out of college, spent the winter as a snowboard bum in Colorado, moved back to Boston, and started working for minimum

by modoc 18y ago

I have to disagree with this. I dropped out of college, spent the winter as a snowboard bum in Colorado, moved back to Boston, and started working for minimum wage in retail. Managed to save enough money to buy a new computer. Got a better job, rinse & repeat. At no time was I subsidized by anyone else. I also don't think I was "very very lucky". Sure, I consider myself lucky in general, but the path from dropping out of college to success is all about hard work (and some natural aptitude wrt tech startup stuff). I'd argue that if you have what it takes to create a successful tech startup (technical skills, strong drive/work ethic, determination, unhealthy willingness to work 16 hours a day, etc...) then you could do just fine dropping out of college. If you don't have those things, then I'd say stay in college for sure, but you won't start a successful startup regardless. I'm also not sure what you want people to "fix" in higher education. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it sounds like you want EVERYONE to create startups. No matter how amazing college is, most people simply don't the right set of traits for that, and that's 100% okay! Society needs artists, call reps, grocery store managers, stay at home moms/dads, and everything else. Plus I honestly don't think sitting at the computer for 10-18 hours/day is physically or mentally healthy. So while I do it a lot, I'm really glad most people don't.

omnivore 18y ago
I certainly didn't tell everyone to create startups. But reading here, that's what it seems like it trends towards. If you're over the age of 27, your example just doesn't count. It's not nearly as easy today to do what you did, than it was a decade ago. The economy has changed dramatically and ancedotal experiences aside, it's hardly a blueprint for mass success. There is no inverse relationship between "hard work" and "success" in a startup. But that's a fallacy that a lot of folks here seem to believe. If it worked for you, that's great. But it's not some sort of reality for everyone.
- modoc 18y ago
  My point specifically is that hard work = success is ONLY for for the very small sub-set of the population that has the right aptitude/skills to create a successful startup/tech career beyond your standard cube-rat (no offense to cube-rats). It's absolutely NOT for everyone. If your point is: for the average person, college is important to success, then sure. My point is that for the tech startup founding type people here, college is probably not very important to success. You called out startups in your OP "The only people who can afford to drop out of college to pursue a startup" so that's what I'm focusing on here.
  - thismat 18y ago
    Completely agree with you modoc, I worked for JUST over minimum wage in a family owned business when I was 17-23 before interviewing for an entry level support position with my current company. I was a run of the mill PC tech who got paid hardly anything at the time (had two kids & wife to support as well) and I never felt I was having a hard time "making it", dare I say, I was happy. I worked hard, picked up programming, and spent nights/spare time working on a program for our branch office, with the intention that I wanted to move up to corporate and be a full time programmer. I busted my tail working, stayed motivated, gained experience, and when the app I wrote for our branch made it into the right hands (this was also planned, just had to wait for the timing to be right) they 'apprenticed me' into a .NET position, on the notion that I showed the right character to be a good employee and worked hard. That was several raises ago, and I'm still moving and improving, and getting serious real world experience in the field I want to make a career out of. I grew up watching my Dad work 10-12 hour days at a company we owned, I was fortunate enough to have parents who always pushed us to achieve anything we wanted (and modest enough to never make us feel like we were anything more than middle class, there was money there, but instead of taking it for our pleasure, my father would reward employees and let it stay as profits for the business). When I left the nest, I severed all financial ties with them to make it on my own, with my own independence. So I wasn't driving a car paid by them, or using a cell phone paid by them, or any of that. The reason I got the first PC tech job even though I had a recreational tech history of computers and 5+ years of graphic/web design experience? Because I interviewed well and my former boss saw potential. The world is full of opportunities for everyone, just look at the examples here. Such a wide range of people with different stories and experiences. College is great, but I don't regret not going. I learned growing up how to teach myself through reading, research and practice, and I learn things faster that way.
- menloparkbum 18y ago
  It's not nearly as easy today to do what you did, than it was a decade ago It's even easier. Enlightened hiring managers just want to see output: github, websites, blogs, downloadable software, etc. At the startups I've worked for recently we only looked thoroughly at a resume if the person had no online presence (which was already a red flag). Maybe you won't get hired at Google or an investment bank, though.
  - firebug 18y ago
    ->"Enlightened hiring managers just want to see output" From my experience "enlightened hiring managers" are the exception rather than the rule.
  - electromagnetic 18y ago
    I know from personal experience that a journalism degree will get you nowhere fast in the writing world. Some of the top editors screen out candidates by if their degree is anything but a passing mention on their resume, if it's the top thing in your experiences you're rejected. I got a job at 17 writing reviews, when I left the job (due to the politics of the job) I had more than enough experience to apply for a job for one of the big magazines. What editors are looking for in writers is a great personal voice, which is something journalism classes teach out of you. I have never seen 'journalism degree' listed on any job in journalism, it's simply not wanted.
neilk 18y ago
Wow. How do you save anything when working for minimum wage in the USA? In Boston, which is a pretty expensive city? I don't know the specifics of your situtation, but it seems to me that most "self-made" people had a lot of educational and social capital built up already. They might have taken a year or two voluntarily outside the system, but it was only because, previously their parents were themselves well educated and made enough money to send their kids to good schools and nurture their interests and talents. So while the child may be exceptional and hard-working, and legitimately earned success, it's usually not quite accurate to say there was no support. Again, I'm not saying this is you, but I see it a lot. I know of maybe one person who overcame a true working class background where their parents actually discouraged them from even going into computers. Everyone else I know in this game is middle class, even upper middle class. I'm also interested in how much milieu seems to affect outcomes. People who just grew up around independent professionals or entrepreneurs have no trouble visualizing themselves doing that, and they know all the social cues.
- modoc 18y ago
  Honestly it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. I worked at Urban Outfitters for $5.15/hour. I started off sleeping on a friend's couch until I could save up enough to get an apartment. I shared a rough but clean apartment in Oak Square in Brighton with two other guys. It was on a bus line, and I could also bike to work if it wasn't snowy. We paid $300/month each. At my income level I didn't pay any real taxes, so I brought home ~$900/month. Spent $300 on rent, spent about $100 on food, maybe $50 on utilities/laundry, leaving $450 each month for savings. At this point that sounds like nothing, but then I didn't have any real expenses and it adds up month after month. While I certainly benefited from having good parents, I didn't have the direct financial support the OP referred to. My point being that you can financially bootstrap yourself without rich parents and without looking at college as "free" rent and food. I agree with you about the support of parents, focus on education, access to computers, visibility to successful people, etc... means a lot. However very little if any of that can fixed by tinkering with higher educational institutions. It's cultural, and it's economic. While I'd love to see everyone given the same opportunities, support, etc... it's confusing because we can't have everyone working in nice offices making $100k+/year. People still need to work at McDonalds, drive street sweepers, pick up trash, and all the other key roles in our society. Is it "fair" that upper middle class kids have a better chance of being upper middle class themselves? No. Is there a good way to fix that? Not that I know of.

by modoc 18y ago

omnivore 18y ago

I certainly didn't tell everyone to create startups. But reading here, that's what it seems like it trends towards. If you're over the age of 27, your example just doesn't count. It's not nearly as easy today to do what you did, than it was a decade ago. The economy has changed dramatically and ancedotal experiences aside, it's hardly a blueprint for mass success. There is no inverse relationship between "hard work" and "success" in a startup. But that's a fallacy that a lot of folks here seem to believe. If it worked for you, that's great. But it's not some sort of reality for everyone.

modoc 18y ago
My point specifically is that hard work = success is ONLY for for the very small sub-set of the population that has the right aptitude/skills to create a successful startup/tech career beyond your standard cube-rat (no offense to cube-rats). It's absolutely NOT for everyone. If your point is: for the average person, college is important to success, then sure. My point is that for the tech startup founding type people here, college is probably not very important to success. You called out startups in your OP "The only people who can afford to drop out of college to pursue a startup" so that's what I'm focusing on here.
- thismat 18y ago
  Completely agree with you modoc, I worked for JUST over minimum wage in a family owned business when I was 17-23 before interviewing for an entry level support position with my current company. I was a run of the mill PC tech who got paid hardly anything at the time (had two kids & wife to support as well) and I never felt I was having a hard time "making it", dare I say, I was happy. I worked hard, picked up programming, and spent nights/spare time working on a program for our branch office, with the intention that I wanted to move up to corporate and be a full time programmer. I busted my tail working, stayed motivated, gained experience, and when the app I wrote for our branch made it into the right hands (this was also planned, just had to wait for the timing to be right) they 'apprenticed me' into a .NET position, on the notion that I showed the right character to be a good employee and worked hard. That was several raises ago, and I'm still moving and improving, and getting serious real world experience in the field I want to make a career out of. I grew up watching my Dad work 10-12 hour days at a company we owned, I was fortunate enough to have parents who always pushed us to achieve anything we wanted (and modest enough to never make us feel like we were anything more than middle class, there was money there, but instead of taking it for our pleasure, my father would reward employees and let it stay as profits for the business). When I left the nest, I severed all financial ties with them to make it on my own, with my own independence. So I wasn't driving a car paid by them, or using a cell phone paid by them, or any of that. The reason I got the first PC tech job even though I had a recreational tech history of computers and 5+ years of graphic/web design experience? Because I interviewed well and my former boss saw potential. The world is full of opportunities for everyone, just look at the examples here. Such a wide range of people with different stories and experiences. College is great, but I don't regret not going. I learned growing up how to teach myself through reading, research and practice, and I learn things faster that way.
menloparkbum 18y ago
It's not nearly as easy today to do what you did, than it was a decade ago It's even easier. Enlightened hiring managers just want to see output: github, websites, blogs, downloadable software, etc. At the startups I've worked for recently we only looked thoroughly at a resume if the person had no online presence (which was already a red flag). Maybe you won't get hired at Google or an investment bank, though.
- firebug 18y ago
  ->"Enlightened hiring managers just want to see output" From my experience "enlightened hiring managers" are the exception rather than the rule.
- electromagnetic 18y ago
  I know from personal experience that a journalism degree will get you nowhere fast in the writing world. Some of the top editors screen out candidates by if their degree is anything but a passing mention on their resume, if it's the top thing in your experiences you're rejected. I got a job at 17 writing reviews, when I left the job (due to the politics of the job) I had more than enough experience to apply for a job for one of the big magazines. What editors are looking for in writers is a great personal voice, which is something journalism classes teach out of you. I have never seen 'journalism degree' listed on any job in journalism, it's simply not wanted.

neilk 18y ago

Wow. How do you save anything when working for minimum wage in the USA? In Boston, which is a pretty expensive city? I don't know the specifics of your situtation, but it seems to me that most "self-made" people had a lot of educational and social capital built up already. They might have taken a year or two voluntarily outside the system, but it was only because, previously their parents were themselves well educated and made enough money to send their kids to good schools and nurture their interests and talents. So while the child may be exceptional and hard-working, and legitimately earned success, it's usually not quite accurate to say there was no support. Again, I'm not saying this is you, but I see it a lot. I know of maybe one person who overcame a true working class background where their parents actually discouraged them from even going into computers. Everyone else I know in this game is middle class, even upper middle class. I'm also interested in how much milieu seems to affect outcomes. People who just grew up around independent professionals or entrepreneurs have no trouble visualizing themselves doing that, and they know all the social cues.

modoc 18y ago
Honestly it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. I worked at Urban Outfitters for $5.15/hour. I started off sleeping on a friend's couch until I could save up enough to get an apartment. I shared a rough but clean apartment in Oak Square in Brighton with two other guys. It was on a bus line, and I could also bike to work if it wasn't snowy. We paid $300/month each. At my income level I didn't pay any real taxes, so I brought home ~$900/month. Spent $300 on rent, spent about $100 on food, maybe $50 on utilities/laundry, leaving $450 each month for savings. At this point that sounds like nothing, but then I didn't have any real expenses and it adds up month after month. While I certainly benefited from having good parents, I didn't have the direct financial support the OP referred to. My point being that you can financially bootstrap yourself without rich parents and without looking at college as "free" rent and food. I agree with you about the support of parents, focus on education, access to computers, visibility to successful people, etc... means a lot. However very little if any of that can fixed by tinkering with higher educational institutions. It's cultural, and it's economic. While I'd love to see everyone given the same opportunities, support, etc... it's confusing because we can't have everyone working in nice offices making $100k+/year. People still need to work at McDonalds, drive street sweepers, pick up trash, and all the other key roles in our society. Is it "fair" that upper middle class kids have a better chance of being upper middle class themselves? No. Is there a good way to fix that? Not that I know of.