3 ms·

Almost, but spooky action is quite a bit spookier. Suppose you and your friend both agree to MAYBE wave a flag every day at 1200 GST, then communicate no furthe

Almost, but spooky action is quite a bit spookier. Suppose you and your friend both agree to MAYBE wave a flag every day at 1200 GST, then communicate no further about it. The alien would always observe that either both flags are being waved, or both are not.

GuiA 14y ago
(My physics education is limited to some undergrad level classes, so sorry if my interpretation is erroneous) Could it be that spooky action has underlying causes that we can't tell yet? For example, reusing the flag metaphor- you and your friend decide to MAYBE wave a flag every day at 1200 GST, and then in practice it happens that every sunny day you both wave it (because hey it's sunny, everybody likes to go outside) and on rainy days no one does (because it's warm and dry inside in your house). An alien with no knowledge of meteorology and our reaction to it observing this would always observe that either both flags are waved, or both are not, in a seeming random matter, where in fact it is not random at all.
- danbruc 14y ago
  What you are describing are hidden variables [1]. Instead of depending on the weather condition both parties could just agree on a secret flag waving schedule you will never be able to observe. Experimental tests have shown that the Bell Inequality [2] is violated and this rules out the class of local hidden variable theories. As far as I know non-local hidden variable theories are still possible. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bells_theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bells_theorem
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- andrewflnr 14y ago
  I believe that would be labeled a hidden-variable theory, which have apparently been mathematically eliminated from consideration.
  - tedsanders 14y ago
    Only local hidden variables has been eliminated (as opposed to nonlocal), and even local hidden variables can logically exist with some tortured reasoning.
GhotiFish 14y ago
It's far less spooky when you consider both you and your friend are basically the same person, and the criteria you use for considering whether or not to raise the flag are the same. That's my understanding of entanglement, but I get the feeling it's a wrong view.
lisper 14y ago
It's even worse than that. You each have four flags. The first flag is black on one side, red on the other. The second is black on one side, green on the other. The third is white on one side, red on the other, and the fourth is white on one side, green on the other. (In other words, one side is black or white, the other side is red or green.) The flags have the peculiar property that as soon as they are exposed to enough light to see what color they are, they burst into flames. So you can look at one side of a flag, or the other, but you can never see both sides of the same flag. You and your (entangled) friend each choose a flag. The alien observer observes the following: 1. Your choice of flags, considered independently of your friend's choice, is indistinguishable from random. Likewise, your friend's choice of flag, considered independently of your choice, is indistinguishable from random. 2. Nonetheless, if the alien looks at the black-white side of both flags, they are always the same. Likewise, if he looks at the red-green side, they are always the same.

GuiA 14y ago

(My physics education is limited to some undergrad level classes, so sorry if my interpretation is erroneous) Could it be that spooky action has underlying causes that we can't tell yet? For example, reusing the flag metaphor- you and your friend decide to MAYBE wave a flag every day at 1200 GST, and then in practice it happens that every sunny day you both wave it (because hey it's sunny, everybody likes to go outside) and on rainy days no one does (because it's warm and dry inside in your house). An alien with no knowledge of meteorology and our reaction to it observing this would always observe that either both flags are waved, or both are not, in a seeming random matter, where in fact it is not random at all.

danbruc 14y ago
What you are describing are hidden variables [1]. Instead of depending on the weather condition both parties could just agree on a secret flag waving schedule you will never be able to observe. Experimental tests have shown that the Bell Inequality [2] is violated and this rules out the class of local hidden variable theories. As far as I know non-local hidden variable theories are still possible. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_variable_theory [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bells_theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bells_theorem
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
andrewflnr 14y ago
I believe that would be labeled a hidden-variable theory, which have apparently been mathematically eliminated from consideration.
- tedsanders 14y ago
  Only local hidden variables has been eliminated (as opposed to nonlocal), and even local hidden variables can logically exist with some tortured reasoning.

GhotiFish 14y ago

It's far less spooky when you consider both you and your friend are basically the same person, and the criteria you use for considering whether or not to raise the flag are the same. That's my understanding of entanglement, but I get the feeling it's a wrong view.

lisper 14y ago

It's even worse than that. You each have four flags. The first flag is black on one side, red on the other. The second is black on one side, green on the other. The third is white on one side, red on the other, and the fourth is white on one side, green on the other. (In other words, one side is black or white, the other side is red or green.) The flags have the peculiar property that as soon as they are exposed to enough light to see what color they are, they burst into flames. So you can look at one side of a flag, or the other, but you can never see both sides of the same flag. You and your (entangled) friend each choose a flag. The alien observer observes the following: 1. Your choice of flags, considered independently of your friend's choice, is indistinguishable from random. Likewise, your friend's choice of flag, considered independently of your choice, is indistinguishable from random. 2. Nonetheless, if the alien looks at the black-white side of both flags, they are always the same. Likewise, if he looks at the red-green side, they are always the same.