4 ms·

I think you can look at any immigrant community and see the answer to this question, almost all first generation immigrants managed to move when they had almost

I think you can look at any immigrant community and see the answer to this question, almost all first generation immigrants managed to move when they had almost no money, so you have tens of millions of people you can ask right now. I think your opinion here is too paternalistic and fatalistic. People can and do adapt when the incentives become strong enough.

steveklabnik 14y ago
Those communities also had beachheads to move to: neighbors and family to support them while they moved. It's not really comparable. Also, during that time, we _really_ needed manual laborors here, so you had a known target (the States) with a support network in-place and an clear path to a job. None of these things are true for low-income people today.
- dsfasfasf 14y ago
  >>Those communities also had beachheads to move to: neighbors and family to support them while they moved. It also helps that they are willing to take almost any job and work their asses off. It will keep you from being homeless.
  - steveklabnik 14y ago
    They also didn't have crippling mental illness to deal with. > It will keep you from being homeless. It does help, but it will not always keep you from homelessness. There simply aren't enough jobs.
    - justin_vanw 14y ago
      Are you saying mental illness makes someone broken, like a cripple? Foucault! Come quick! Seriously though, 'there aren't enough jobs' is just a weird thing to say. Aren't enough jobs for what? For everyone to not be homeless? Let me paint you a picture. You are homeless. At night, when it rains, you get wet. After a day of panhandling, you have $30. Do you: 1. Buy a meal (loaf of bread and coffee, $4) and save as much as possible for bus fare. 2. Buy a tent, so at least you can stay dry and avoid illness. 3. Buy 2 fifths of rotgut vodka and drink it on the sidewalk. The problem has absolutely nothing to do with jobs. If you had 5 open jobs for every person in the country, the same people would still be homeless.
      - steveklabnik 14y ago
        > Are you saying mental illness makes someone broken, like a cripple? Foucault! Come quick! Yes, I am saying that the way that we treat people who have mental health issues discourages them even further. > Aren't enough jobs for what? I have friends from college who had to move back in with their parents because they literally could not find a job. They applied everywhere, even McDonalds. No work. > If you had 5 open jobs for every person in the country, the same people would still be homeless. No, they wouldn't. _Some_ people would be, there's always the travel punk kids. But even your hypothetical is giving me a decision between rational choices. You left off the 'the voices from your paranoid schizophrenia are so loud that all you can do is lie there in a ball' option.
        dsfasfasf 14y ago
        >>I have friends from college who had to move back in with their parents because they literally could not find a job. They applied everywhere, even McDonalds. No work. I have another anecdote to counter your anecdote. I have a friend just arrived a couple of weeks ago. In the first week she was able to find two jobs. One in a hotel in the buffet area and another in a clothing factory.
mjn 14y ago
> People can and do adapt when the incentives become strong enough. Is the argument that SF's homeless have it too good, and if we made their condition worse (i.e., increased the "incentives"), that would solve the problem? Which incentives exactly do you have in mind? They are already subject to shockingly high levels of violence, which the police appear incapable of protecting them from. Do the levels of violence need to be even higher?
anigbrowl 14y ago
I'm an immigrant and moved to the Bay Area in the 90s with no network, and no desire to plug into my ethnic (Irish) network for political reasons (when I moved here first the Irish community was tilted heavily towards support of of the IRA and its associated political arm). My in-laws moved here from North Vietnam via Hong Kong in the 70s, and were also somewhat socially isolated by choice (most Vietnamese people in the Bay Area are from South Vietnam and as you can imagine this would make for some political friction). It's certainly possible, but it also helps to be young and healthy; not to have any particular life obligations; to be a bit alienated from your native environment in the first place; and to have a somewhat unrealistic view of your own capabilities :) It also helps if you're moving from lesser to greater opportunities. If you're moving from SF (for example) to somewhere much cheaper, you're likely also facing a narrowing of your available economic, academic and other options. So although I share your views to a certain extent, I think you're also taking a rather rosy view of things. It is certainly possible to move and adapt, but there are significant costs involved and it's not equally easy to move in any direction.

steveklabnik 14y ago

Those communities also had beachheads to move to: neighbors and family to support them while they moved. It's not really comparable. Also, during that time, we _really_ needed manual laborors here, so you had a known target (the States) with a support network in-place and an clear path to a job. None of these things are true for low-income people today.

dsfasfasf 14y ago
>>Those communities also had beachheads to move to: neighbors and family to support them while they moved. It also helps that they are willing to take almost any job and work their asses off. It will keep you from being homeless.
- steveklabnik 14y ago
  They also didn't have crippling mental illness to deal with. > It will keep you from being homeless. It does help, but it will not always keep you from homelessness. There simply aren't enough jobs.
  - justin_vanw 14y ago
    Are you saying mental illness makes someone broken, like a cripple? Foucault! Come quick! Seriously though, 'there aren't enough jobs' is just a weird thing to say. Aren't enough jobs for what? For everyone to not be homeless? Let me paint you a picture. You are homeless. At night, when it rains, you get wet. After a day of panhandling, you have $30. Do you: 1. Buy a meal (loaf of bread and coffee, $4) and save as much as possible for bus fare. 2. Buy a tent, so at least you can stay dry and avoid illness. 3. Buy 2 fifths of rotgut vodka and drink it on the sidewalk. The problem has absolutely nothing to do with jobs. If you had 5 open jobs for every person in the country, the same people would still be homeless.
    - steveklabnik 14y ago
      > Are you saying mental illness makes someone broken, like a cripple? Foucault! Come quick! Yes, I am saying that the way that we treat people who have mental health issues discourages them even further. > Aren't enough jobs for what? I have friends from college who had to move back in with their parents because they literally could not find a job. They applied everywhere, even McDonalds. No work. > If you had 5 open jobs for every person in the country, the same people would still be homeless. No, they wouldn't. _Some_ people would be, there's always the travel punk kids. But even your hypothetical is giving me a decision between rational choices. You left off the 'the voices from your paranoid schizophrenia are so loud that all you can do is lie there in a ball' option.
      - dsfasfasf 14y ago
        >>I have friends from college who had to move back in with their parents because they literally could not find a job. They applied everywhere, even McDonalds. No work. I have another anecdote to counter your anecdote. I have a friend just arrived a couple of weeks ago. In the first week she was able to find two jobs. One in a hotel in the buffet area and another in a clothing factory.

mjn 14y ago

> People can and do adapt when the incentives become strong enough. Is the argument that SF's homeless have it too good, and if we made their condition worse (i.e., increased the "incentives"), that would solve the problem? Which incentives exactly do you have in mind? They are already subject to shockingly high levels of violence, which the police appear incapable of protecting them from. Do the levels of violence need to be even higher?

anigbrowl 14y ago

I'm an immigrant and moved to the Bay Area in the 90s with no network, and no desire to plug into my ethnic (Irish) network for political reasons (when I moved here first the Irish community was tilted heavily towards support of of the IRA and its associated political arm). My in-laws moved here from North Vietnam via Hong Kong in the 70s, and were also somewhat socially isolated by choice (most Vietnamese people in the Bay Area are from South Vietnam and as you can imagine this would make for some political friction). It's certainly possible, but it also helps to be young and healthy; not to have any particular life obligations; to be a bit alienated from your native environment in the first place; and to have a somewhat unrealistic view of your own capabilities :) It also helps if you're moving from lesser to greater opportunities. If you're moving from SF (for example) to somewhere much cheaper, you're likely also facing a narrowing of your available economic, academic and other options. So although I share your views to a certain extent, I think you're also taking a rather rosy view of things. It is certainly possible to move and adapt, but there are significant costs involved and it's not equally easy to move in any direction.