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> But leaving out of protest is always an option. Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of pers

> But leaving out of protest is always an option. Why should I ruin my evening due to this guy? What exactly are you protesting? Do you think this kind of person gives a shit if you walk away? Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) Stand up to him and resolve it; if no progress is made and it turns ugly, that person is no longer welcome at your table and you move on. I laid out a template here[0]. I see lots of people saying "walk away" -- you're letting the troll win. That's your dinner. This isn't like high school where you can just up and walk away and get whispers going in the hallway about what happened at lunch last Tuesday, OMG! Handle it like a grown person. This is important: TROLLS WILL CONTINUE TROLLING AS LONG AS YOUR SILLY CLINGING TO POLITENESS MEANS YOU WON'T CONFRONT THEM. Your being polite enables them. Think about that. Just don't get it wrong and draw down on a harmless comment that you misunderstood. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5483332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5483332

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danso 14y ago
Not knowing everything about the OP's situation and/or the company he keeps and/or the relation to everyone else at the table, I'm just saying that if nothing else, leaving out of protest is an option. I don't mean, leave because your stomach isn't feeling well. Leave because the offender is intolerable and make that clear. In certain situations, having a big scene may not be possible...but leaving, and possibly convincing others to join, is far better than just letting things slide.
danielweber 14y ago
Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) It can happen. It takes some guts and if you don't have the social capital with this group you may not be able to pull it off. Everyone goes to a new table but leaves the dickhead sitting there.
- reeses 14y ago
  There is no downside to leaving the table. I have two axes, based on the reaction of the douchebags and of the others at the table. There are no neutral parties. 1) Douchebags may think you're a 'fag' - You win, they are still douchebags and you are not around douchebags. 2) Douchebags may get embarrassed - You win, they may think before douching again and you are not around douchebags. 3) Douchebags may apologize (assume sincerely), ceasing to be douchebags - You win, the table can return to normal conversation, and you are not around douchebags. A) Others stay at the table, giving you no support - You win, you have upheld the virtue of equality, you have taken the measure of people you thought were not douchebags, and you are not around douchebags. B) Others stay at the table, telling douchebags that they were over the line - You win, you have encouraged dissent, and you are not around douchebags. C) Others leave the table or restaurant - You win, you have led others to take an affirmative stand against the douchebags, and you are not around douchebags. D) Others follow you to a different table or restaurant - You win, you have led others to take an affirmative stand against the douchebags, you can have a conversation without shouting (unless it's because Tottenham are CRUSHING Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U, or Arsenal) and you are not around douchebags. The important thing is making your stand there and then. It takes chutzpah, but the more you work it, the stronger it gets.
jdbernard 14y ago
It is not your dinner. It is everyone at that table's dinner, troll's included. And you seem to be stuck on ejecting him from the table. If the majority of the table agrees with you you can probably shame him into leaving. How are you going to do that if you don't have that consensus or if he refuses? Are you going to get physical? I would probably try to make him leave first, but failing that, walking away is the appropriate choice. You are passing judgment, in a way, on the whole party when you do this. You are saying that this behavior is not acceptable in your company and if the present company disagrees then this is important enough for you to remove yourself from that company because it is not something you can tolerate. We cannot force people to be polite or even tolerant. We can choose who we keep company with.
- wonderzombie 14y ago
  Simply leaving doesn't hold the aggressor accountable for what they've said; I think it should be a last resort. If you leave, probably there's awkward silence, someone makes a halfhearted joke, and eventually the conversation changes to something else. Out of sight, out of mind. If you stay and demand an apology politely but firmly, the aggressor is in an awkward position. An apology is something utterly reasonable to demand and there's a lot of social pressure around that, at least if you want to be seen as a (relatively) mature person. It also gives the aggressor a way to reconcile. They're probably more likely to reflect than if you just flounce; the possibility for further conversation is still there. Of course, that said, if they apologize insincerely or not at all, there's not much you can do but leave. But you don't want to raise the stakes that high until you've offered some concrete way for the aggressor to end the confrontation.
  - jdbernard 14y ago
    Oh, certainly. You should first try to hold them accountable. If the rest of the table is more concerned with getting past the awkward confrontation than dealing with the aggressor's behavior, then you leave. I was arguing against this position: > I see lots of people saying "walk away" -- you're letting the troll win. [..] TROLLS WILL CONTINUE TROLLING AS LONG AS YOUR SILLY CLINGING TO POLITENESS MEANS YOU WON'T CONFRONT THEM. Walking away isn't just politeness and it doesn't mean you don't confront them. But this type of confrontation is not productive if there is not a consensus at the table. It devolves into the kind of situation that just makes the original victim feel smaller and worse. You end up throwing a tantrum trying to force the rest of the table to punish the aggressor. Stand up against this kind of behavior, certainly. Hopefully this will give the others at the table courage to denounce it also and make the offender unwelcome. But becoming belligerent and trying to force him to leave, as tiredofcareer seemed to suggest, is not a productive way to handle the situation. Best scenario is when you call the person out on their remarks and they apologize. Short of that, you hope everyone else makes it socially difficult for them to stay without apologizing. Worst case you leave. I also strongly disagree with this: > This isn't like high school where you can just up and walk away and get whispers going in the hallway about what happened at lunch last Tuesday, OMG! Yes, this is not highschool. We all expect to be more mature than that. If a friend of mine left a dinner saying, "I'm sorry, this behavior is not acceptable to me and I can't stay," that would make me seriously reconsider my position. This person is my friend. I value their opinion. If they are so upset that they feel they cannot in good conscience stay then I must have seriously misjudged the importance of what just happened. That is the reaction you are trying for.

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danso 14y ago

Not knowing everything about the OP's situation and/or the company he keeps and/or the relation to everyone else at the table, I'm just saying that if nothing else, leaving out of protest is an option. I don't mean, leave because your stomach isn't feeling well. Leave because the offender is intolerable and make that clear. In certain situations, having a big scene may not be possible...but leaving, and possibly convincing others to join, is far better than just letting things slide.

danielweber 14y ago

Do you think the entire rest of the table will follow you? (Answer: No.) It can happen. It takes some guts and if you don't have the social capital with this group you may not be able to pull it off. Everyone goes to a new table but leaves the dickhead sitting there.

reeses 14y ago
There is no downside to leaving the table. I have two axes, based on the reaction of the douchebags and of the others at the table. There are no neutral parties. 1) Douchebags may think you're a 'fag' - You win, they are still douchebags and you are not around douchebags. 2) Douchebags may get embarrassed - You win, they may think before douching again and you are not around douchebags. 3) Douchebags may apologize (assume sincerely), ceasing to be douchebags - You win, the table can return to normal conversation, and you are not around douchebags. A) Others stay at the table, giving you no support - You win, you have upheld the virtue of equality, you have taken the measure of people you thought were not douchebags, and you are not around douchebags. B) Others stay at the table, telling douchebags that they were over the line - You win, you have encouraged dissent, and you are not around douchebags. C) Others leave the table or restaurant - You win, you have led others to take an affirmative stand against the douchebags, and you are not around douchebags. D) Others follow you to a different table or restaurant - You win, you have led others to take an affirmative stand against the douchebags, you can have a conversation without shouting (unless it's because Tottenham are CRUSHING Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U, or Arsenal) and you are not around douchebags. The important thing is making your stand there and then. It takes chutzpah, but the more you work it, the stronger it gets.

jdbernard 14y ago

It is not your dinner. It is everyone at that table's dinner, troll's included. And you seem to be stuck on ejecting him from the table. If the majority of the table agrees with you you can probably shame him into leaving. How are you going to do that if you don't have that consensus or if he refuses? Are you going to get physical? I would probably try to make him leave first, but failing that, walking away is the appropriate choice. You are passing judgment, in a way, on the whole party when you do this. You are saying that this behavior is not acceptable in your company and if the present company disagrees then this is important enough for you to remove yourself from that company because it is not something you can tolerate. We cannot force people to be polite or even tolerant. We can choose who we keep company with.

wonderzombie 14y ago
Simply leaving doesn't hold the aggressor accountable for what they've said; I think it should be a last resort. If you leave, probably there's awkward silence, someone makes a halfhearted joke, and eventually the conversation changes to something else. Out of sight, out of mind. If you stay and demand an apology politely but firmly, the aggressor is in an awkward position. An apology is something utterly reasonable to demand and there's a lot of social pressure around that, at least if you want to be seen as a (relatively) mature person. It also gives the aggressor a way to reconcile. They're probably more likely to reflect than if you just flounce; the possibility for further conversation is still there. Of course, that said, if they apologize insincerely or not at all, there's not much you can do but leave. But you don't want to raise the stakes that high until you've offered some concrete way for the aggressor to end the confrontation.
- jdbernard 14y ago
  Oh, certainly. You should first try to hold them accountable. If the rest of the table is more concerned with getting past the awkward confrontation than dealing with the aggressor's behavior, then you leave. I was arguing against this position: > I see lots of people saying "walk away" -- you're letting the troll win. [..] TROLLS WILL CONTINUE TROLLING AS LONG AS YOUR SILLY CLINGING TO POLITENESS MEANS YOU WON'T CONFRONT THEM. Walking away isn't just politeness and it doesn't mean you don't confront them. But this type of confrontation is not productive if there is not a consensus at the table. It devolves into the kind of situation that just makes the original victim feel smaller and worse. You end up throwing a tantrum trying to force the rest of the table to punish the aggressor. Stand up against this kind of behavior, certainly. Hopefully this will give the others at the table courage to denounce it also and make the offender unwelcome. But becoming belligerent and trying to force him to leave, as tiredofcareer seemed to suggest, is not a productive way to handle the situation. Best scenario is when you call the person out on their remarks and they apologize. Short of that, you hope everyone else makes it socially difficult for them to stay without apologizing. Worst case you leave. I also strongly disagree with this: > This isn't like high school where you can just up and walk away and get whispers going in the hallway about what happened at lunch last Tuesday, OMG! Yes, this is not highschool. We all expect to be more mature than that. If a friend of mine left a dinner saying, "I'm sorry, this behavior is not acceptable to me and I can't stay," that would make me seriously reconsider my position. This person is my friend. I value their opinion. If they are so upset that they feel they cannot in good conscience stay then I must have seriously misjudged the importance of what just happened. That is the reaction you are trying for.