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Speaking based on experience with what happened to Jesse Noller and the PSF just two weeks ago, you do not want to escalate this to any level where someone migh

Speaking based on experience with what happened to Jesse Noller and the PSF just two weeks ago, you do not want to escalate this to any level where someone might lose a job or be asked to leave the conference. The same people that cannot handle social situations with women without discussing their tits resort to death threats and nonstop harassment when one of "their own" is chastised publicly for such a thing. If I were Jesse, I'd be having second thoughts about my volunteer work after that shitshow. It's just not worth it to be kind to these people. Ever. Someone else I know wrote a blog post about the Adria Richards thing. He then moderated one comment which was extremely offensive. In retaliation, the person that wrote the comment launched a denial of service against his blog. This industry is full of emotional children that cannot handle being adults, and most of them can never admit that they might be wrong. Had OP confronted this jackass, it probably would have gone nowhere, and running to the cops/conference people is just shoving your problems on someone else. There is just no easy solution here without stepping up and being confrontational. I'm assuming the game development people (different industry) and GDC might have missed that brouhaha, even though it was all over the news, so I'm sparing the benefit of the doubt that game development should have learned a valuable lesson from the PSF's (and Python community's) misfortune.

vickytnz 14y ago
I think that this has to come from both directions: 1. Remember those silly class codes of conduct we had to do at the beginning of each school year? Bring something like that back at the beginning of each conference. OK, not quite that cheesy, but a reminder at the start about the code of conduct. Offer refunds at that point if people don't agree with them. Hell, we have to sit through the Health and Safety stuff anyway so it's a good time to add them in. (Speaking of which, I think it's too late to do anything int regards to the guy this year). 2. At a grass roots level. I know it's a horrible analogy, but I remember when I was taking my dog through dog obedience (OK, puppy kindy) that if you don't punish a dog within four seconds for something they've done wrong, you might as well forget it as they will have. In that respect, I think any social reactions have to be swift and to the point. Walk away from a group if something is unacceptable, or very quickly say something along the lines of 'that crossed the line and isn't cool'.
drakeandrews 14y ago
Whilst I understand the idea you're trying to get across, we have to make it clear to these people that they're outright not welcome any more. Getting this asshat barred from future GDC's can only be a good thing and perhaps if (and when) people get up in arms over it a la Adria Richards, they need to be warned, or even barred, too. Doing nothing because you fear the verbal reprisals of a group of immature misogynists seems, to me at least, the worst of all possible options.
- tiredofcareer 14y ago
  I'm not advocating doing nothing. I'm saying don't make this a public spectacle or attempt to get the person fired or banned from GDC. Here's why: In my reading, this person was not confronted about it enough for him to change his behavior. In the author's writing, it was swept under the rug. Right now resolution of these incidents goes like this: Hear ugly -> politely ignore in person -> report to others So yeah, if you want to be deferential to other people and never get things accomplished by yourself, and passive aggressively "send a message" to the person by getting them banned by GDC, by all means. Just know that nothing will change. The person will resent you for getting him banned from GDC, not for being offended at his ugliness. This is like calling the police because someone shouted in your face and you can't handle it. The correct answer is handling it yourself. The police don't have time for that shit, and I've seen way too many people think that's what the police are for (even calling 911 because someone was shouting at them, or laid a hand on them -- though the latter gets a little more complicated). Here's how this sort of thing should go: Hear ugly -> stop socializing and make offender cry Seriously, a step by step guide to handling this: 1. Someone says something ugly. 2. "Whoa whoa, everybody stop. Shut up a second." 3. "What did you just say?" 4. Continue silencing the table. Do not let anybody else stop you or get involved. 5. "That is completely unacceptable." 6. "You owe your victim an apology." Do not stop until you get an honest one. 7. If the offender whimpers, good. You got through. 8. If the offender refuses apology, eject the offender. Think of this as garbage collection. Pause the world, clean up the garbage, resume socializing. It's important that everybody else defers to you and doesn't attempt to interrupt you or stop you. Several people always will to avoid the confrontation happening in front of them. "I'm sure he didn't mean it that way." Neutralize them or you will never be able to get through to the person you need to change. The target of your confrontation will cling to the people around you who are less sure of what you're doing and use it against you. Be resolute. This isn't "alpha male" behavior, this is standing strong and not taking no for an answer. Seriously, be the change you want to see in our industry. Quit calling the cops to make other people fix your problems. Stop being polite to assholes. Your politeness is what feeds them -- they know you won't confront them.
banachtarski 14y ago
The notice to the individual need not be overtly public-facing. It could just be a dialog between the conference committee (who should care about the quality of its attendees) and the person in question. I personally would also prefer less public vitriol everywhere.
- tiredofcareer 14y ago
  Okay, sure, but at that point why not just do it yourself? You're basically saying "I can't handle this myself, can you talk to the guy for me?"
  - banachtarski 14y ago
    Who's the "you" in your sentence? The original poster? I really don't understand the point of your comment. Bars have bouncers for a reason.

vickytnz 14y ago

I think that this has to come from both directions: 1. Remember those silly class codes of conduct we had to do at the beginning of each school year? Bring something like that back at the beginning of each conference. OK, not quite that cheesy, but a reminder at the start about the code of conduct. Offer refunds at that point if people don't agree with them. Hell, we have to sit through the Health and Safety stuff anyway so it's a good time to add them in. (Speaking of which, I think it's too late to do anything int regards to the guy this year). 2. At a grass roots level. I know it's a horrible analogy, but I remember when I was taking my dog through dog obedience (OK, puppy kindy) that if you don't punish a dog within four seconds for something they've done wrong, you might as well forget it as they will have. In that respect, I think any social reactions have to be swift and to the point. Walk away from a group if something is unacceptable, or very quickly say something along the lines of 'that crossed the line and isn't cool'.

drakeandrews 14y ago

Whilst I understand the idea you're trying to get across, we have to make it clear to these people that they're outright not welcome any more. Getting this asshat barred from future GDC's can only be a good thing and perhaps if (and when) people get up in arms over it a la Adria Richards, they need to be warned, or even barred, too. Doing nothing because you fear the verbal reprisals of a group of immature misogynists seems, to me at least, the worst of all possible options.

tiredofcareer 14y ago
I'm not advocating doing nothing. I'm saying don't make this a public spectacle or attempt to get the person fired or banned from GDC. Here's why: In my reading, this person was not confronted about it enough for him to change his behavior. In the author's writing, it was swept under the rug. Right now resolution of these incidents goes like this: Hear ugly -> politely ignore in person -> report to others So yeah, if you want to be deferential to other people and never get things accomplished by yourself, and passive aggressively "send a message" to the person by getting them banned by GDC, by all means. Just know that nothing will change. The person will resent you for getting him banned from GDC, not for being offended at his ugliness. This is like calling the police because someone shouted in your face and you can't handle it. The correct answer is handling it yourself. The police don't have time for that shit, and I've seen way too many people think that's what the police are for (even calling 911 because someone was shouting at them, or laid a hand on them -- though the latter gets a little more complicated). Here's how this sort of thing should go: Hear ugly -> stop socializing and make offender cry Seriously, a step by step guide to handling this: 1. Someone says something ugly. 2. "Whoa whoa, everybody stop. Shut up a second." 3. "What did you just say?" 4. Continue silencing the table. Do not let anybody else stop you or get involved. 5. "That is completely unacceptable." 6. "You owe your victim an apology." Do not stop until you get an honest one. 7. If the offender whimpers, good. You got through. 8. If the offender refuses apology, eject the offender. Think of this as garbage collection. Pause the world, clean up the garbage, resume socializing. It's important that everybody else defers to you and doesn't attempt to interrupt you or stop you. Several people always will to avoid the confrontation happening in front of them. "I'm sure he didn't mean it that way." Neutralize them or you will never be able to get through to the person you need to change. The target of your confrontation will cling to the people around you who are less sure of what you're doing and use it against you. Be resolute. This isn't "alpha male" behavior, this is standing strong and not taking no for an answer. Seriously, be the change you want to see in our industry. Quit calling the cops to make other people fix your problems. Stop being polite to assholes. Your politeness is what feeds them -- they know you won't confront them.

banachtarski 14y ago

The notice to the individual need not be overtly public-facing. It could just be a dialog between the conference committee (who should care about the quality of its attendees) and the person in question. I personally would also prefer less public vitriol everywhere.

tiredofcareer 14y ago
Okay, sure, but at that point why not just do it yourself? You're basically saying "I can't handle this myself, can you talk to the guy for me?"
- banachtarski 14y ago
  Who's the "you" in your sentence? The original poster? I really don't understand the point of your comment. Bars have bouncers for a reason.