10 ms·

> Look, I am all for having an electric car do well, but I would much rather finance the world of Leafs and similar affordable cars than a luxury vehicle to peo

> Look, I am all for having an electric car do well, but I would much rather finance the world of Leafs and similar affordable cars than a luxury vehicle to people who could make the payment regardless. Nissan Leaf, average owner income: $125,000 http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1049202_just-who-is-a-typical-2011-nissan-leaf-buyer-we-find-out http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1049202_just-who-is-a-ty... Chevy Volt, average owner income: $175,000 http://autos.aol.com/article/why-the-chevy-volt-is-attracting-wealthy-buyers/ http://autos.aol.com/article/why-the-chevy-volt-is-attractin...

groby_b 14y ago
Tesla S, average owner income >$200K. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7238-Model-S-Buyers-What-s-Your-Income http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7238-Model-S-B...
anigbrowl 14y ago
So what? The Leaf is still about 1/3 the price of the Tesla car, so it's inarguably more affordable. Pointing out that the average buyer is reasonably well off is beside the point. From an environmental standpoint it's going to lead to a greater reduction in fossil fuel use in the aggregate, assuming it sees the same pattern of takeup as the Prius did.
- podperson 14y ago
  The simplest way to make electric cars more successful is to increase the artificially low price of gasoline, e.g. By factoring in the costs of our mid-east foreign policy and a good deal of our navy since both are driven in large part by our need for oil.
  - eru 14y ago
    I agree. But don't expect any magic. Europe has much higher costs of gasoline than the USA. They still don't have roads full of electric cars.
    - cantankerous 14y ago
      Americans drive a lot more than Europeans. I'm not sure if it's a totally fair comparison, but still a good point.
      - eru 14y ago
        Yes. And driving less is one of the predictable reactions to higher petrol prices.
        Ntrails 14y ago
        It's also a space thing. As a Brit the thing I didn't get so well before going there is how sodding big the US is, and how normal it's citizens think it is to drive to the next town over which just happens to be an hour or so away.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        cantankerous 14y ago
        I was doing just this with a German foreign exchange student in Missouri once. He commented about halfway there that, if he were at home, we'd be in Poland already.
        cantankerous 14y ago
        Americans will continue to drive automobiles more than Europeans if gas prices were to go to parity. Our mass transit infrastructure is laughable by comparison. Also, we're way more spread out than Europe is.
    - Cthulhu_ 14y ago
      > They still don't have roads full of electric cars. yet. Government subsidizes 100% electrical cars heavily in the form of low / no road taxes or lease tax, and with a high amount of <100 km commuter traffic, electrical cars with their limited range make sense.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - ars 14y ago
    It might be a simple solution, but that doesn't make it a good solution. The number of unintended consequences will be enormous. For example: Will you tax diesel as well? If not, then people will switch to that, with poor results for our air quality. If yes, then suddenly every since thing you buy will be more expensive, since it's all shipped. And those are just the first two things that popped into mind - there will be a LOT more consequences.
    - aidenn0 14y ago
      So you are fine subsidizing oil companies by allowing them to externalize their costs? Also shipping is starting to switch to natural gas; you may think this a good or a bad thing, but a tax on diesel would increase that.
      - raverbashing 14y ago
        No, you do it by taxing gasoline and diesel You can discriminate between uses in a way similar to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_diesel#reddiesel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_diesel#reddiesel
    - rfugger 14y ago
      You just tax the carbon emissions.
      - jfb 14y ago
        Exactly. Tax the negative externality [1]. Let people make decisions factoring in more of the costs. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax
        podperson 14y ago
        Taxing carbon emissions is a fine idea, but gasoline (and other petroleum products such as diesel) also need to pay for the costs of US mid-east policy. We've never had terrorists blow up buildings or a marine barracks because of our coal mining activity.
  - lostlogin 14y ago
    The costs of Middle East policy doesnt need factoring in, they are there already. And the cost of petrol isn't the same everywhere as it is in the US, and is significantly inflated by taxes in many places. Over 50% of what I pay is tax.

groby_b 14y ago

Tesla S, average owner income >$200K. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7238-Model-S-Buyers-What-s-Your-Income http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/7238-Model-S-B...

anigbrowl 14y ago

So what? The Leaf is still about 1/3 the price of the Tesla car, so it's inarguably more affordable. Pointing out that the average buyer is reasonably well off is beside the point. From an environmental standpoint it's going to lead to a greater reduction in fossil fuel use in the aggregate, assuming it sees the same pattern of takeup as the Prius did.

podperson 14y ago
The simplest way to make electric cars more successful is to increase the artificially low price of gasoline, e.g. By factoring in the costs of our mid-east foreign policy and a good deal of our navy since both are driven in large part by our need for oil.
- eru 14y ago
  I agree. But don't expect any magic. Europe has much higher costs of gasoline than the USA. They still don't have roads full of electric cars.
  - cantankerous 14y ago
    Americans drive a lot more than Europeans. I'm not sure if it's a totally fair comparison, but still a good point.
    - eru 14y ago
      Yes. And driving less is one of the predictable reactions to higher petrol prices.
      - Ntrails 14y ago
        It's also a space thing. As a Brit the thing I didn't get so well before going there is how sodding big the US is, and how normal it's citizens think it is to drive to the next town over which just happens to be an hour or so away.
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        cantankerous 14y ago
        I was doing just this with a German foreign exchange student in Missouri once. He commented about halfway there that, if he were at home, we'd be in Poland already.
      - cantankerous 14y ago
        Americans will continue to drive automobiles more than Europeans if gas prices were to go to parity. Our mass transit infrastructure is laughable by comparison. Also, we're way more spread out than Europe is.
  - Cthulhu_ 14y ago
    > They still don't have roads full of electric cars. yet. Government subsidizes 100% electrical cars heavily in the form of low / no road taxes or lease tax, and with a high amount of <100 km commuter traffic, electrical cars with their limited range make sense.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- ars 14y ago
  It might be a simple solution, but that doesn't make it a good solution. The number of unintended consequences will be enormous. For example: Will you tax diesel as well? If not, then people will switch to that, with poor results for our air quality. If yes, then suddenly every since thing you buy will be more expensive, since it's all shipped. And those are just the first two things that popped into mind - there will be a LOT more consequences.
  - aidenn0 14y ago
    So you are fine subsidizing oil companies by allowing them to externalize their costs? Also shipping is starting to switch to natural gas; you may think this a good or a bad thing, but a tax on diesel would increase that.
    - raverbashing 14y ago
      No, you do it by taxing gasoline and diesel You can discriminate between uses in a way similar to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_diesel#reddiesel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_diesel#reddiesel
  - rfugger 14y ago
    You just tax the carbon emissions.
    - jfb 14y ago
      Exactly. Tax the negative externality [1]. Let people make decisions factoring in more of the costs. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax
      - podperson 14y ago
        Taxing carbon emissions is a fine idea, but gasoline (and other petroleum products such as diesel) also need to pay for the costs of US mid-east policy. We've never had terrorists blow up buildings or a marine barracks because of our coal mining activity.
- lostlogin 14y ago
  The costs of Middle East policy doesnt need factoring in, they are there already. And the cost of petrol isn't the same everywhere as it is in the US, and is significantly inflated by taxes in many places. Over 50% of what I pay is tax.