7 ms·

But they do. Let me explain. I grew up in a barrio, which is a latin ghetto. Junked cars in front lawns, domestic disturbances every night, shootings, drugs, al

But they do. Let me explain. I grew up in a barrio, which is a latin ghetto. Junked cars in front lawns, domestic disturbances every night, shootings, drugs, all of that stuff. Every kid in there made money by pure hustle. There were no jobs available for any of us. Some kids cut hair (then went on to become barbers), others worked on cars, but most sold drugs. There were startups, but all were of the illegal variety. No one had any type of business permit, and almost everybody sold illegal substances (including alcohol). Some people did make it out of poverty and went on to live productive lives. Others, the ones that sold drugs, either ended up being junkies, dead, jailed, or just disappeared. This due to the type of business they got into. I'm sure that had these kids gone into real businesses like mowing lawns, painting houses, working at a farm, selling eggs, or anything positive, they would be good productive people. I was lucky. At age 9 I started selling candy. Then I joined Amway at age 14. Then I opened up my first (illegal) auto shop some years after. Why always had the option of selling drugs, but it just wasn't attractive as a business. For every sale I would make about a dollar. If I made 30 sales in a day (given the competition from other dealers), then I would be putting myself at risk for $210 week (you worked 7 days a week). Not worth it. I did not make that much selling candy, but at least I was not getting shot at. And with Amway, made twice as that much by selling soap. Why did I make it out and not others? I was lucky. My parents were professionals, the only ones in the whole barrio. The other kid's parents were not. They also had to incur into dealing drugs, or other illegal activities. The issue is that these people did not do this because they wanted, they did so because they had no other option. Dealing drugs was the only job they could get, much less do. So the kids were grandfathered into selling drugs, too. Can poor kids do startups to get out of poverty? Absolutely. But they need to have the right information to do so. Their parents need to have legal jobs available. But not fast food jobs, but real stuff. Construction workers, electricians, mechanics, etc. Those jobs are gone these days. I'm just lucky to be a software engineer. My best friend? In jail.

cllns 14y ago
Thanks for sharing this. There's a quote I remember from somewhere about this that was something along the lines of "When you give someone two bad options, don't be surprised when they take one."
ja27 14y ago
Those jobs are gone these days. I grew up mostly in an upper middle class neighborhood, but for high school, we were bussed to a school in a more lower class area. There were a lot more trailer parks in the area and the auto body program at my high school was pretty popular. Just last week I was driving through that area and saw business after business with signs outside looking to hire CNC machinists, HVAC installers, etc. Those skilled jobs aren't gone. They're getting harder and harder to fill. I don't think my high school even offers auto body classes any more, but there are two college-track magnet programs there.
- orangethirty 14y ago
  Yes, you point another issue. In high school, I had the option to learn about other subjects aside from the standard math, English, Spanish, and science. There was a program that taught students about business (and had them run one from their classroom), one for music (which had them build a band), and wood shop (which had people building furniture). All of those programs are gone these days. All of them. Why? Budget cuts. But here is the real impact of such programs: All of the older people in the barrio that did not sell drugs, and were mechanics or construction workers, had learned their trade in school. This generation does not have that anymore.
  - makomk 14y ago
    Exactly, and no matter how desperate businesses claim to be for skilled staff they're hardly going to start training them up themselves either. On-the-job training is dead or dying basically everywhere.
    - orangethirty 14y ago
      Which is a pity, because I know a lot of talented people who are just dying to get an opportunity to learn on the job. Not college trained, or even really bright, but talented, and willing to learn.
      - dangoldin 14y ago
wildgift 14y ago
I'm a middle class guy but for whatever reasons for the past 20 years or so I've lived largely in poorer communities. It's not some charity thing either. I just like to save money. And this dude is right, drug dealers don't make much money. They really lack options, like most people in their situation of being poor, minority, and young. The jobs like mowing lawns barely exist (often because there aren't many lawns). They sell drugs mainly because wealthier people are willing to drive into the area to buy drugs. The liquor stores even sell things like nickel bags and smoking gear. Gangs offer credit. The product kind of sells itself, the same way that laptops used to sell themselves, or that big screen tvs used to. When I looked like a dirtbag, people always asked me where to buy drugs. Middle class college kids were the ones asking. I usually didn't know. (I wish people would come up to me and ask to write little utilities for Unix.) One other thing I notice, too - there's just a ton of stress, and nothing harms learning like stress. I once shared an office in a gangland type area, and it was impossible to work at night because the gunfire and helicopters really stopped any flow of ideas.
- precisioncoder 14y ago
  The other problem that I've noticed is a lack of emphasis on saving. I lived in a lot of poor neighborhoods as well and worked a lot of entry level jobs. I remember working at a catering job making $9/hour that was abusing the catering regulations to get the workers to work 60-70 hour weeks without overtime pay. (It was a shady but legal loophole) I loved it because I had just come out of a bad situation and had some debt to pay off. I worked there for about 9 months, saving $4000 which paid off all my credit cards and a loan I had taken to get myself out of a bad situation. Then I moved on. I knew a lot of people who had been there for years, working that punishing schedule and had saved nothing, in fact they were shocked that you could save money. They spent most of it on clothes, alchohol, and drugs. I feel like the main thing that is lacking in schools is a realistic money management course that teaches people how to manage their expenses and savings.
  - orangethirty 14y ago
    Most people can't save. The poorer you are the more expensive things get. Food costs have doubled. So has fuel, which in turn increases utilities. They barely scrape by.
gridmaths 14y ago
Do kids in the Barrios these days have access to Android phones? It would be good if at least some of them can get to information and bootstrap some education / skillset from there.
- wildgift 14y ago
  yes. metro pcs, virgin mobile, and boost mobile have no-contract $40 a month unlimited and $50 android phones. also, people do have internet and computers. it's around $15 or $20 a month, and you can usually share with a neighbor via wifi. the real issue is that parents don't always see the value of the internet because they themselves don't use it. they're like the masses of people who got interested in the internet after it was on tv all the time and advertised. (which includes people of all classes of course) they didn't get exposure from college, like i did, or exposure from work, like many office workers and management did. they got it from tv, and see it as a complement to tv or cable tv (which many, many poor people don't have). so right off the bat, they don't see internet as more important than television or video games or other things, when it's probably the most important thing in telecommunications in the past century. now, that said, there's a lot of working class computer users out there. in fact, when it comes to socializing online, i think the working class have been doing it more than anyone else for the past 10 or 15 years, because hands down, the internet is the cheapest way to socialize and meet people. i don't know for sure, but i suspect it's been a very important part of socializing for all the brainy kids in middle and high school. look at the people being busted for being in Anonymous. it's a mix of classes. they're not all rich kids like Aaron Swartz (RIP). that kind of leads me into some things that the rich and middle class can do to help the poor. i think the best thing ever has been free and open source software, especially linux, but the whole culture of giving it away, making sources available, and giving away free documentation. i've learned a ton this way, and meet people who have modest resources who are learning programming. a lot of sysadmin jobs are held by people who were working class, too. it's huge on so many levels. another, which I've done, is just fix up old computers and give them away. i'm sure we all do this. just set them up with xubuntu and open office or something similar. maybe buy some ram. maybe show them how to repair it. share your wifi password, or go open. repairing computers for free or cheap helps too, but i'd say only if they really can't afford it. if they can, they should just hire one of the local shops. Microsoft has done a lot towards making MS stuff cheap or free, and giving away hardware, for people in need or for nonprofits. I think that's helped a lot. FOSS can't really do the same, in the same way, but it's going to get there soon with open hardware. i think app stores are good. they lower software costs for consumers, and reduce the risks for capitalizing software development. i think the ubuntu software center is a good thing and supporting that by buying and developing for it will help. i wish i had studied spanish. it would be easier to organize some kind of computer network across buildings. of course, this violates contracts -- so forming an ISP that would allow customers to resell internet links would be a really useful thing for poor communities. also, fighting for legislation to protect this kind of peering service would be good. facebook's new PAC looks like it won't help working class entry level IT folks, because it will fight to boost H1B. they're also going to push for charters and, probably, reforms to replace classes with online classes. so organizing against that within communities could be good. I think library-based hackerspaces are also a good thing. Fight to fund those.

cllns 14y ago

Thanks for sharing this. There's a quote I remember from somewhere about this that was something along the lines of "When you give someone two bad options, don't be surprised when they take one."

ja27 14y ago

Those jobs are gone these days. I grew up mostly in an upper middle class neighborhood, but for high school, we were bussed to a school in a more lower class area. There were a lot more trailer parks in the area and the auto body program at my high school was pretty popular. Just last week I was driving through that area and saw business after business with signs outside looking to hire CNC machinists, HVAC installers, etc. Those skilled jobs aren't gone. They're getting harder and harder to fill. I don't think my high school even offers auto body classes any more, but there are two college-track magnet programs there.

orangethirty 14y ago
Yes, you point another issue. In high school, I had the option to learn about other subjects aside from the standard math, English, Spanish, and science. There was a program that taught students about business (and had them run one from their classroom), one for music (which had them build a band), and wood shop (which had people building furniture). All of those programs are gone these days. All of them. Why? Budget cuts. But here is the real impact of such programs: All of the older people in the barrio that did not sell drugs, and were mechanics or construction workers, had learned their trade in school. This generation does not have that anymore.
- makomk 14y ago
  Exactly, and no matter how desperate businesses claim to be for skilled staff they're hardly going to start training them up themselves either. On-the-job training is dead or dying basically everywhere.
  - orangethirty 14y ago
    Which is a pity, because I know a lot of talented people who are just dying to get an opportunity to learn on the job. Not college trained, or even really bright, but talented, and willing to learn.
    - dangoldin 14y ago

wildgift 14y ago

I'm a middle class guy but for whatever reasons for the past 20 years or so I've lived largely in poorer communities. It's not some charity thing either. I just like to save money. And this dude is right, drug dealers don't make much money. They really lack options, like most people in their situation of being poor, minority, and young. The jobs like mowing lawns barely exist (often because there aren't many lawns). They sell drugs mainly because wealthier people are willing to drive into the area to buy drugs. The liquor stores even sell things like nickel bags and smoking gear. Gangs offer credit. The product kind of sells itself, the same way that laptops used to sell themselves, or that big screen tvs used to. When I looked like a dirtbag, people always asked me where to buy drugs. Middle class college kids were the ones asking. I usually didn't know. (I wish people would come up to me and ask to write little utilities for Unix.) One other thing I notice, too - there's just a ton of stress, and nothing harms learning like stress. I once shared an office in a gangland type area, and it was impossible to work at night because the gunfire and helicopters really stopped any flow of ideas.

precisioncoder 14y ago
The other problem that I've noticed is a lack of emphasis on saving. I lived in a lot of poor neighborhoods as well and worked a lot of entry level jobs. I remember working at a catering job making $9/hour that was abusing the catering regulations to get the workers to work 60-70 hour weeks without overtime pay. (It was a shady but legal loophole) I loved it because I had just come out of a bad situation and had some debt to pay off. I worked there for about 9 months, saving $4000 which paid off all my credit cards and a loan I had taken to get myself out of a bad situation. Then I moved on. I knew a lot of people who had been there for years, working that punishing schedule and had saved nothing, in fact they were shocked that you could save money. They spent most of it on clothes, alchohol, and drugs. I feel like the main thing that is lacking in schools is a realistic money management course that teaches people how to manage their expenses and savings.
- orangethirty 14y ago
  Most people can't save. The poorer you are the more expensive things get. Food costs have doubled. So has fuel, which in turn increases utilities. They barely scrape by.

gridmaths 14y ago

Do kids in the Barrios these days have access to Android phones? It would be good if at least some of them can get to information and bootstrap some education / skillset from there.

wildgift 14y ago
yes. metro pcs, virgin mobile, and boost mobile have no-contract $40 a month unlimited and $50 android phones. also, people do have internet and computers. it's around $15 or $20 a month, and you can usually share with a neighbor via wifi. the real issue is that parents don't always see the value of the internet because they themselves don't use it. they're like the masses of people who got interested in the internet after it was on tv all the time and advertised. (which includes people of all classes of course) they didn't get exposure from college, like i did, or exposure from work, like many office workers and management did. they got it from tv, and see it as a complement to tv or cable tv (which many, many poor people don't have). so right off the bat, they don't see internet as more important than television or video games or other things, when it's probably the most important thing in telecommunications in the past century. now, that said, there's a lot of working class computer users out there. in fact, when it comes to socializing online, i think the working class have been doing it more than anyone else for the past 10 or 15 years, because hands down, the internet is the cheapest way to socialize and meet people. i don't know for sure, but i suspect it's been a very important part of socializing for all the brainy kids in middle and high school. look at the people being busted for being in Anonymous. it's a mix of classes. they're not all rich kids like Aaron Swartz (RIP). that kind of leads me into some things that the rich and middle class can do to help the poor. i think the best thing ever has been free and open source software, especially linux, but the whole culture of giving it away, making sources available, and giving away free documentation. i've learned a ton this way, and meet people who have modest resources who are learning programming. a lot of sysadmin jobs are held by people who were working class, too. it's huge on so many levels. another, which I've done, is just fix up old computers and give them away. i'm sure we all do this. just set them up with xubuntu and open office or something similar. maybe buy some ram. maybe show them how to repair it. share your wifi password, or go open. repairing computers for free or cheap helps too, but i'd say only if they really can't afford it. if they can, they should just hire one of the local shops. Microsoft has done a lot towards making MS stuff cheap or free, and giving away hardware, for people in need or for nonprofits. I think that's helped a lot. FOSS can't really do the same, in the same way, but it's going to get there soon with open hardware. i think app stores are good. they lower software costs for consumers, and reduce the risks for capitalizing software development. i think the ubuntu software center is a good thing and supporting that by buying and developing for it will help. i wish i had studied spanish. it would be easier to organize some kind of computer network across buildings. of course, this violates contracts -- so forming an ISP that would allow customers to resell internet links would be a really useful thing for poor communities. also, fighting for legislation to protect this kind of peering service would be good. facebook's new PAC looks like it won't help working class entry level IT folks, because it will fight to boost H1B. they're also going to push for charters and, probably, reforms to replace classes with online classes. so organizing against that within communities could be good. I think library-based hackerspaces are also a good thing. Fight to fund those.