4 ms·

Assuming this is not April 1 con'd. Dart is really cool. Awesome, in fact. I want this project to do well. But there's just no way I am going to base my busin

by trimbo 14y ago

Assuming this is not April 1 con'd. Dart is really cool. Awesome, in fact. I want this project to do well. But there's just no way I am going to base my business on it when not even Google uses it for their own stuff. It's just way too early.

michaelwww 14y ago
I don't know if Google does not use it for their own stuff and you don't supply references. That's not the same as saying Google will not use it for their own stuff. That would be quite surprising. In fact, I'm assuming they are developing it primarily as an internal tool, hence the disregard for a reasonable time line for shipment of 1.0
- munificent 14y ago
  > I'm assuming they are developing it primarily as an internal tool It's neither primarily internal nor external. My understanding is that the higher-ups feel Dart must succeed both inside and outside of Google to be successful. Which one must happen first is an open question, but I think the end goal is wide use both inside and outside the company.
  - michaelwww 14y ago
    > end goal is wide use both inside and outside the company I agree fully. I would just add that, just in terms of salaries they've paid to Google employees working on Dart, they've spent millions, which they won't get back from by selling Dart. They probably have a compelling internal reason for doing this. They win if external developers adopt it because useful libraries will be written.
    - munificent 14y ago
      > they've spent millions, which they won't get back from by selling Dart Yes, I think everyone understands today that languages don't directly generate revenue. > They probably have a compelling internal reason for doing this. Off the top of my head: * If it makes Googlers more productive writing apps in Dart, that directly saves Google money. We, obviously have some very large JavaScript applications (gmail, maps, docs...) and we spend a ton of engineering time on them. If we can make those engineers more productive, that's a huge savings. * If Dart succeeds externally, that's more third-party code that Google can then use for its own projects, so that directly saves us money. * If Dart makes other web developers more productive, that makes the web bigger. A bigger web means more people spending time on it and more people doing web searches, which ultimately goes right back to Google. Google is happy when the web gets bigger.
      - michaelwww 14y ago
        Your first reason is the most compelling and what JavaScript developers might want to consider. My own experience is that I am much more productive writing code in Dart and then converting it to JavaScript. Why? * Autocompletion (intellisense) * Refactoring * Use types and catch errors before runtime. Types are optional, although I don't know why you wouldn't use them unless you are pasting in some JavaScript code and running it as Dart. Hand converting JavaScript to Dart is fairly easy because types are optional. * Quick turn around time in the "change code, set breakpoint, run code, stop at break point" cycle. * Calling native JS code is painless. Libraries that are currently not available as Dart, such as three.js can still be used. * Project organization is fairly automatic. * Code analyzer - this one is my favorite. The analyzer will tell me if my change causes a problem in another file. It runs in the background, like C# does.
- trimbo 14y ago
  I have no information except what Google says publicly. In the absence of any information about whether Google is using it, I have to assume they are not when making a decision on that basis.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
kyrra 14y ago
The Dart team has said that internal teams are already using Dart, but nothing they are allowed to talk about publicly yet. I'd imagine as part of the 1.0 launch they will start talking about it. A lot of people like to say GWT is dead, but Google AdWords still uses it. And as a users of GWT still, their dev team actually seems to be more on-top of putting out new developer plugins (for each Firefox update). Sure releases of GWT have slowed down, but it is still being maintained and used within Google.

by trimbo 14y ago

michaelwww 14y ago

I don't know if Google does not use it for their own stuff and you don't supply references. That's not the same as saying Google will not use it for their own stuff. That would be quite surprising. In fact, I'm assuming they are developing it primarily as an internal tool, hence the disregard for a reasonable time line for shipment of 1.0

munificent 14y ago
> I'm assuming they are developing it primarily as an internal tool It's neither primarily internal nor external. My understanding is that the higher-ups feel Dart must succeed both inside and outside of Google to be successful. Which one must happen first is an open question, but I think the end goal is wide use both inside and outside the company.
- michaelwww 14y ago
  > end goal is wide use both inside and outside the company I agree fully. I would just add that, just in terms of salaries they've paid to Google employees working on Dart, they've spent millions, which they won't get back from by selling Dart. They probably have a compelling internal reason for doing this. They win if external developers adopt it because useful libraries will be written.
  - munificent 14y ago
    > they've spent millions, which they won't get back from by selling Dart Yes, I think everyone understands today that languages don't directly generate revenue. > They probably have a compelling internal reason for doing this. Off the top of my head: * If it makes Googlers more productive writing apps in Dart, that directly saves Google money. We, obviously have some very large JavaScript applications (gmail, maps, docs...) and we spend a ton of engineering time on them. If we can make those engineers more productive, that's a huge savings. * If Dart succeeds externally, that's more third-party code that Google can then use for its own projects, so that directly saves us money. * If Dart makes other web developers more productive, that makes the web bigger. A bigger web means more people spending time on it and more people doing web searches, which ultimately goes right back to Google. Google is happy when the web gets bigger.
    - michaelwww 14y ago
      Your first reason is the most compelling and what JavaScript developers might want to consider. My own experience is that I am much more productive writing code in Dart and then converting it to JavaScript. Why? * Autocompletion (intellisense) * Refactoring * Use types and catch errors before runtime. Types are optional, although I don't know why you wouldn't use them unless you are pasting in some JavaScript code and running it as Dart. Hand converting JavaScript to Dart is fairly easy because types are optional. * Quick turn around time in the "change code, set breakpoint, run code, stop at break point" cycle. * Calling native JS code is painless. Libraries that are currently not available as Dart, such as three.js can still be used. * Project organization is fairly automatic. * Code analyzer - this one is my favorite. The analyzer will tell me if my change causes a problem in another file. It runs in the background, like C# does.
trimbo 14y ago
I have no information except what Google says publicly. In the absence of any information about whether Google is using it, I have to assume they are not when making a decision on that basis.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

kyrra 14y ago

The Dart team has said that internal teams are already using Dart, but nothing they are allowed to talk about publicly yet. I'd imagine as part of the 1.0 launch they will start talking about it. A lot of people like to say GWT is dead, but Google AdWords still uses it. And as a users of GWT still, their dev team actually seems to be more on-top of putting out new developer plugins (for each Firefox update). Sure releases of GWT have slowed down, but it is still being maintained and used within Google.