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What I would like to see from Microsoft regarding OSS
- Toshio 14y agoThe best thing that company can do about OSS is (drumroll) ... ... STOP the SecureBoot madness!
- kunai 14y agoTo be honest, the FUD over Secure Boot is really reaching a fever pitch, and for no reason, as well. Just turn it off in the UEFI settings and install as much Linux, BSD, or GNU that you want. It really is not a big deal.
- pfraze 14y agoA quick google shows you're right! That's some pretty bad FUD if there's nothing else to this. Is there something about Secure Boot that turning it off doesn't solve?
- Toshio 14y agoYes. Easy to use dual-boot is key to slowly transitioning your friends and family to Linux.
- icebraining 14y agoThere's no turning it off on some platforms (ARM).
- jaredmcateer 14y agoI just bought a laptop that came with Windows 8, after 15 minutes of frustration just trying to play around with it, I replaced it with Linux, I didn't even notice the secureboot stuff.
- Toshio 14y agoThis isn't about you or me or any other tech-savvy person. It's about the non-technical person, and about evangelizing the use of free-as-in-freedom operating systems to them. It used to be easy to dual-boot, but now that it's a seven-step operation to switch operating systems, that's effectively a monkey-wrench thrown into the widespread adoption of Linux.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- jaredmcateer 14y agoIt's a bit of a strawman, there are virtually no non-tech-savvy individuals that would ever embark on installing an alternative operating system without being influenced by, let alone without assistance from, a tech-savvy person.
- rbanffy 14y ago> there are virtually no non-tech-savvy individuals that would ever embark on installing an alternative operating system And that's exactly what secure boot is designed to accomplish.
- jaredmcateer 14y agoSecure boot has nothing to do with it, you have to drag non-technical people kicking and screaming to do something as simple as switching their browser from IE. It's a minor inconvenience for the people that will actually be doing the work.
- Toshio 14y ago> "Just turn it off in the UEFI settings" Yes, because when you're trying to get your non-technical friends and family to get used to Linux, they will be REALLY keen on going into UEFI to disable-reenable-disable-again etc. to switch between operating systems, whereas it was a simple keystroke up until recently.
- kunai 14y agoIIRC, couldn't you run Windows 8 without boot authentication? I believe there was a control panel option for this, and after you turn it off, GRUB should be the only thing you need.
- recoiledsnake 14y agoFirst, Windows 8 runs fine with secure boot disabled, so there no need to "disable-reenable-disable-again etc. to switch between operating systems". Second, how many folks that are able to install and configure Linux are unable to turn a setting off in the UEFI menu? Third, you need to balance this difficulty against the problem of bootkit malware across the PC ecosystem. Why should the hundreds of millions of technically not savvy not be protected from bootkits by default? Is there a way to make it less complicated for Linux users while still maintaining the security that Secure Boot provides?
- kunai 14y ago> "Is there a way to make it less complicated for Linux users while still maintaining the security that Secure Boot provides?" Yes. It's called a PC with Linux preinstalled. Or just a Mac. The only PC I can think of that isn't just a rebrand or a really poorly designed one is the XPS 13, and that doesn't fit my needs currently (awful 16:9 aspect ratio). So, I bought a MacBook Air instead, and I'm running Linux Mint alongside OS X without any problems.
- icebraining 14y agoThat's because you bought a x86 machine. On ARM, you have no such option: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/01/windows-8s-locked-bootloaders-much-ado-about-nothing-or-the-end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/01/window...
- kunai 14y agoI doubt anyone purchasing a mobile Windows RT RISC machine would be inclined to install Linux on it. In fact, the only devices I can currently think of are Windows RT tablets, which nobody is buying anyhow.
- rbanffy 14y agoI'd do it. It's decent hardware and well designed.
- cooldeal 14y agoI love the phrasing "ARM device" as opposed to Windows RT. Somehow the largest selling "ARM Devices" i.e iPads are not blamed for having locked bootloaders. But on a barely selling platform, suddenly it's a huge deal.
- icebraining 14y agoWho are you criticizing exactly? The article is specifically about Window's Secure Boot, so it doesn't make much sense to bring iPads and other devices into it. If you're talking in general, there are those who blame them: http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ipad http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ipad
- icebraining 14y agoAs the FSF says, SecureBoot is not the problem; only implementations that don't let the user override it.
- Toshio 14y agoIt's about microsoft insisting that the only pre-loaded encryption key is theirs, to the exclusion of all other encryption keys. It's this exclusionary practice that's the problem, not the implementation per se.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- recoiledsnake 14y ago>It's about microsoft insisting that the only pre-loaded encryption key is theirs, to the exclusion of all other encryption keys. Please, stop the FUD, it just makes people look totally ignorant. Microsoft does not insist that in any shape or form. If you have a reference, please share it. But don't go around spreading falsehood.
- cooldeal 14y ago>It's about microsoft insisting that the only pre-loaded encryption key is theirs, to the exclusion of all other encryption keys. Bullshit, they do no such thing. The OEMs are perfectly able and willing to preload other keys. It's the community that is unable to step up to having a signing infrastructure. Why don't you contribute to the effort of a signing mechanism for Linux instead of just spreading anti-Microsoft lies? Edit: I see that my post is getting downvoted while the factually incorrect parent post is not. This feels like /r/Linux, where facts are not welcome and where FUD gets voted up.
- sethrin 14y ago> Edit: I see that my post is getting downvoted while the factually incorrect parent post is not. This feels like /r/Linux, where facts are not welcome and where FUD gets voted up. I have a variety of negative responses to this, ranging from the apathetic, to the contradictory, to the ad hominem. I would probably not have had the same reaction had you omitted the "Edit:", although your description of the situation is perhaps oversimplified. Holding factual accuracy as the highest virtue is the blessing and curse of the tech world, and as such it may be forgivable. How you are choosing to express yourself, on the other hand, would seem to have a great deal to do with how well those comments are received.
- eksith 14y agoOne area they still have a stronghold is in Office and productivity software. There was an entry on HN about this : http://linuxaria.com/article/the-biggest-failure-in-open-source-is?lang=en http://linuxaria.com/article/the-biggest-failure-in-open-sou... If any of those were to be made open source, MS would effectively corner the open source office market as well. I'm not holding my breath though. I'm actually shocked at how quickly the Microsoft stack in my daily work has now gone down in use from where it was only about 5 years ago. With the exception of Office as in above and Windows for Photoshop (almost daily use) and Visual Studio (some projects still need it), the rest is entirely Open Source from OS and on. Currently I'm using Mint and Debian with OpenBSD on the side. As much as people bash MS for all sorts of (well deserved) things, the bottom line is that they do get a lot of things right. It's not just political wrangling that allow them to stay in business, obviously, since if the products are really lacking too much, they'd be hurting too. I do think the culture in the company is changing, hopefully for the better. Edit: I think, by and large Windows 8 is a mistake, but not in the way it was designed. The way it was marketed. Win 8 makes sense on mobile/touch devices and no where else. And that's all I have to say about that. Hopefully, they don't plan on keeping the trend into the next version of Windows, but we'll see. Even though joysticks are arguably a better means of control, there's a reason cars still have steering wheels.
- jussij 14y ago> corner the open source market Once you've "corner the open source" market what does that get you? I assume Red Hat has "corner the open source" Linux server market and the're earnings are nothing compared to MS. This is a serious question, what do you get when you've cornered any open source market? Google cornered the Android market until Samsung made billions from Google's efforts.
- pjmlp 14y agoThis is what is so hard for many FOSS fans to understand. The ecosystem has only expanded to the extent big corporations are willing to invest money on it. If IBM, Google and others had not invested into FOSS as a means to help them sell services, most likely the situation would be quite similar to the mid 80's, in what concerns software development tools. In the markets where you cannot sell services, it is very hard to make a living from FOSS.
- martinced 14y ago"I would love for anyone else reading this to add their own ideas on how they think Microsoft can help the Open Source Community." I'll bite: they could stop funding (either officially or sneakily) FUD reports with totally fake TCO advantaging Windows and painting Linux under a bad light. IIRC people have found law proposals at the European Commission (or European Parliament, I don't remember: I think they're drafted at the EC and reviewed for approval at the EP) written in Word documents that still containing past-history / revisions and the EFF or someone else from the good side realized that the first version of that Word document was actually drafter by someone working for Microsoft. Then it's not a big secret that people deciding on which technology to use in big companies (and big state owned companies) are getting bribes in the form of illegal kickbacks from technology vendors (IBM was --still is?-- famous for that). So if they want to help OSS for a start I'd suggest stopping the FUD reports with fake TCOs and put an end to these crazy illegal kickbacks given to influence deciders' choices. Now to be honest: I'm an "ABM" (Anything But Microsoft: I'd sell my soul to, say, Google, if that means Microsoft would disappear once and for all) but I feel a bit sorry for MS. I think that hadn't they been using these shaddy tactics since decades they'd already be much more irrelevant than they already are today. (P.S: girlfriend bought a Samsung Android phone today for work so she can synch her GMail professional contacts with her phone and sister in law bought a MacBook, life is good ; )
- sproketboy 14y agoHaving them just get out of the way and go out of business already.
- MatthewPhillips 14y agoI was going to say stop using the Ms-PL[1] license but when I checked both ASP MVC[2] and TypeScript[3] are licensed under Apache. Good decision. [1]http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/openness/licenses.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/openness/licenses.aspx [2]http://aspnetwebstack.codeplex.com/license http://aspnetwebstack.codeplex.com/license [3]http://typescript.codeplex.com/license http://typescript.codeplex.com/license
- rbanffy 14y ago- License the complete .NET stack under an Apache license. - Disclose the patents they allege Linux infringes. - Apologize for what they did to ISO. - Make the ability to add personal keys to secure boot a requirement for having a Windows logo.
- cooldeal 14y ago>Make the ability to add personal keys to secure boot a requirement for having a Windows logo Sigh, that's already the requirement. If I had a cent for every poster that is ignorant about secure boot but rants against it as if they are a guru, I'd be very rich. Why so many tech savvy folks are clueless when it comes to Secure Boot, I will never know. These facts are known from over a year, but the FUDsters have succeeded in fudging the facts and spreading mistruths.
- wildfire 14y agoIt is?? Great, how do I do this on my Windows Surface (ARM) device?
- recoiledsnake 14y agoYour Surface RT(if you really have one) does not come with a Windows 8 Certified Logo sticker.
- nivla 14y agoGosh, ARM devices are different from x86 ones. Almost all ARM devices are vendor locked. If you are interested in knowing how to do this on a Surface Pro (A.K.A a x86 device), I can help you out.
- rbanffy 14y ago> Almost all ARM devices are vendor locked. It seems I have an odd sample over my desk. There are 4 ARM-based devices on it, all of them are unlocked.
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- groke 14y agoNext up, "What I would like to see from North Korea regarding South Korea." Seriously guys, this is a day late.
- jiggy2011 14y agoIt would be lovely for MS to promote alternative open source frameworks and make it as easy as possible for .Net shops to use them. That way .Net programmers will get a nice cost saving when someone inevitably ports the whole lot over to Mono/Linux.
- xradionut 14y agoThe problem isn't just the relationship that Microsoft has with OSS, but with developers in general. As developer in their "ecosystem" for years, I've come to the conclusion that the majority of the Redmond management is totally out of touch with the third party developers. Crap like Windows 8, "flat" interfaces, abandonment of APIs, NIH, reinventing the wheel, ignoring requests and feedback, etc, doesn't make it better.
- afreak 14y agoI think that you can say this about Apple too. Here's my rewrite of your statement: "The problem isn't just the relationship that Apple has with OSS, but with developers in general. As developer in their "ecosystem" for years, I've come to the conclusion that the majority of the Cupertino management is totally out of touch with the third party developers. Crap like Mac OS X, "round" interfaces, abandonment of APIs, NIH, reinventing the wheel, ignoring requests and feedback, etc, doesn't make it better." My mindset is that any mainstream, large vendor is going to have these traits.
- pjmlp 14y agoLike any commercial vendor. You can rephrase that using whatever commercial vendor you can think of.
- camus 14y agouse more open protocols , open standards , be in favor of inter-operability , especially regarding all your "office" and business tools and stack.
- axemclion 14y agoMore about Microsoft and OSS - https://github.com/MSOpenTech https://github.com/MSOpenTech