4 ms·

While I agree to a point, I would like to add that this meme has not sprung spontaeneously from a vacuum - in my opinion, it is a fairly well-deserved reaction

by sho 18y ago

While I agree to a point, I would like to add that this meme has not sprung spontaeneously from a vacuum - in my opinion, it is a fairly well-deserved reaction to American hubris on a wide spectrum. One only need turn on Fox News for a few minutes to hear the familiar "I believe America is the greatest nation on earth", "greatest country on earth", "greatest nation in history" - you may not personally be a fan of Fox News but the fact remains it is the most popular news network in the USA, so must be considered to have some representative credibility - or if you don't believe that, just listen to George W. Bush's similar words. As a native of another country, I can attest to the laughter, then annoyance, then sneering cynicism about all things American such oft-repeated nonsense provokes. And I am far from anti-American. I don't personally believe that America is headed inevitably for ruin and poverty, but its post-WWII shine is definitely wearing off as it takes its more rightful place as just another country - a big, rich, successful country mind you, but not the God-appointed Country of Countries in the minds of the "Greatest, Free-est, best nation on earth" crowd. It's not hard to understand the schadenfreude this inspires as the hubristic boosterism drifts yet further from reality. Everyone hates a braggart. Everyone rejoices, at some level, when the braggart is shown up to be the vain fool he always was. There's an element to this in the meme you describe, I think.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago
Something was bugging me about this comment. I think this is it: Everyone hates a braggart Why would I hate a braggart? I could care less about people bragging about their stuff -- cars, clothes, country, whatever. The only reason I would hate a braggart is, unfortunately for this context, if I felt inferior to them. But otherwise, who cares? They're just a bore. Lots of people are bores, about all kinds of things. I don't wish them any ill or harm, and I would not rejoice to see them brought down. I just find better things to do than hang out with them. That is, once again, unless I felt that they had something I really needed or envied. I guess that's the rub, huh. EDIT: I'm very sorry if my comment seems rude. I'm sure there's a better way to say what I wanted. I just didn't want the idea that hating people who brag was somehow a normal or acceptable thing to do. It's not. I say -- let braggarts be braggarts. At least they seem happy about whatever they feel so superior about.
- rdouble 18y ago
  Everyone hates a braggart It's a cultural thing. Scandinavians and Australians in particular hate braggarts and even have phrases for this cultural tendency: janteloven and tall-poppy syndrome. Other cultures have responses for the boastful which range from eye-rolling and groans (UK) to active encouragement (NBA, pro boxers, battle rappers).
  - sho 18y ago
    Haha, right on. Native Australian here : )
- sho 18y ago
  Braggart is perhaps the wrong word, but I couldn't think of a more suitable one - perhaps you can pick up the gist from the rest of the comment. There's some truth in what you say, of course, and I agree envy would also be a factor, especially coming from citizens of, say, Iran, or whereever. Your textbook love/hate relationship there. However, when said "braggart" is in possession of the largest military in the world, and is inclined towards its enthusiastic use, ignoring them is not really an option. I am talking about, of course, the Iraq war, whose justification really boils down to "because we're America, and we can do whatever we want, and we feel like doing this". Who cares? Everyone who does not like the idea of one country invading others at whim, that's who, anyone who respects life. It is hard to overstate the loss in prestige, in basic respect, the Iraq war has precipitated for America. Anyway, not trying to endorse this view, just trying to explain it to the GP.
  - DanielBMarkham 18y ago
    So aside from changing the rules for U.N. Security Council Chapter Seven binding resolutions, which call for member states to use force to uphold them ( and which Iraq was in violation of more than a dozen of them), I believe you're saying that because people didn't like the Iraq invasion, they'd like to see the Chinese or somebody else have the capability to sink U.S. (and other nations too) carriers at will. Sort of to even the score? (That's all I'm going to say on Iraq, and that probably was too much) No mention of the Chinese invading Tibet? Or the Soviets taking half of Europe? Just as long as somebody comes along to take down those yanks a notch or two? Makes some sense to me -- I guess. I know as an American I'm tired of us being the only superpower. I sincerely wish other countries would take a hint from how we grew (less regulation, more creative chaotic growth, change of leadership on a regular basis) and catch up. That seems more productive than wishing ill or any person or country, but I guess wishing the other guy falls down is easier than picking up your own pace, eh? Not my cup of tea. Thanks for explaining it some more. Doesn't make a lot of sense, but then again, most public opinion things don't!
Rod 18y ago
I entirely agree that the post-WWII shine is wearing off, but that is a sign of things converging to their right place. The U.S. emerged as the western world's only superpower after a war which left Europe in ruins and half the world behind an Iron Curtain. That was an anomaly. There's a huge difference between ceasing to be the world's only superpower and collapsing. It seems to me that many people are blinded by schadenfreude indeed, while many others react way too negatively to this new reality.
- sho 18y ago
  Then we are in full agreement. The problem is that many Americans seem to have interpreted the post-WWII ascendancy of America as some kind of God-given mandate to reign forevermore at the top of Earth's and indeed the Universe's food chain, not for the temporary historical anomaly that it was. Those misguided people are in for a rude awakening, and none too soon. But yes - America will not collapse, of course, no matter how much anyone wishes it. Talk about your "too big to fail". And I for one am .. wary about the Chinese ever gaining as much relative power as the USA possessed at the height of its geopolitical dominance. Petty schadenfreude takes a pretty far back seat to that concern, let me tell you, so I for one am hoping the Yanks can pull out of their dive and go on to maintain a global counterweight to the Yellow Peril, soonest.
krschultz 18y ago
I agree that the "best country in history" is a bit obnoxious, but it is clearly a fact that the US is the only current super power. The obvious secondary one is China, but it is not there yet, and the EU as a whole has muscle but no individual country can match the US militarily or economically. Ironically, the current recession will likely wind up strengthing the US comparitive to the rest of the world. While we have 2 bickering parties trying to figure it out, the EU has a bunch and they are reacting more slowly than the US (now at least). China will fall because the US imports are their primary economic driver and services will pick up in the US prior to goods.
- anamax 18y ago
  > the EU as a whole has muscle but no individual country can match the US militarily or economically. Collectively, the EU may have economic muscle (well - they have GDP), but there's no collective military muscle.
  - Rod 18y ago
    That's true. When there was trouble in the Balkans, Europe was uncapable of dealing with it and had to call Uncle Sam. On the other hand, the EU is good at using its economic muscle. For instance, in 2004 the EU expanded its territory by over 20% without firing a single shot ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_enlargement_of_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_enlargement_of_the_Europea... To cut a long story short: sometimes (relative) economic prosperity is more persuasive than military action.
    - anamax 18y ago
      > For instance, in 2004 the EU expanded its territory by over 20% without firing a single shot ;-) Annexing people who want to be annexed isn't a demonstration of muscle or pursuasion. Pursuasion is getting someone to do something that they don't want to do.

by sho 18y ago

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

Something was bugging me about this comment. I think this is it: Everyone hates a braggart Why would I hate a braggart? I could care less about people bragging about their stuff -- cars, clothes, country, whatever. The only reason I would hate a braggart is, unfortunately for this context, if I felt inferior to them. But otherwise, who cares? They're just a bore. Lots of people are bores, about all kinds of things. I don't wish them any ill or harm, and I would not rejoice to see them brought down. I just find better things to do than hang out with them. That is, once again, unless I felt that they had something I really needed or envied. I guess that's the rub, huh. EDIT: I'm very sorry if my comment seems rude. I'm sure there's a better way to say what I wanted. I just didn't want the idea that hating people who brag was somehow a normal or acceptable thing to do. It's not. I say -- let braggarts be braggarts. At least they seem happy about whatever they feel so superior about.

rdouble 18y ago
Everyone hates a braggart It's a cultural thing. Scandinavians and Australians in particular hate braggarts and even have phrases for this cultural tendency: janteloven and tall-poppy syndrome. Other cultures have responses for the boastful which range from eye-rolling and groans (UK) to active encouragement (NBA, pro boxers, battle rappers).
- sho 18y ago
  Haha, right on. Native Australian here : )
sho 18y ago
Braggart is perhaps the wrong word, but I couldn't think of a more suitable one - perhaps you can pick up the gist from the rest of the comment. There's some truth in what you say, of course, and I agree envy would also be a factor, especially coming from citizens of, say, Iran, or whereever. Your textbook love/hate relationship there. However, when said "braggart" is in possession of the largest military in the world, and is inclined towards its enthusiastic use, ignoring them is not really an option. I am talking about, of course, the Iraq war, whose justification really boils down to "because we're America, and we can do whatever we want, and we feel like doing this". Who cares? Everyone who does not like the idea of one country invading others at whim, that's who, anyone who respects life. It is hard to overstate the loss in prestige, in basic respect, the Iraq war has precipitated for America. Anyway, not trying to endorse this view, just trying to explain it to the GP.
- DanielBMarkham 18y ago
  So aside from changing the rules for U.N. Security Council Chapter Seven binding resolutions, which call for member states to use force to uphold them ( and which Iraq was in violation of more than a dozen of them), I believe you're saying that because people didn't like the Iraq invasion, they'd like to see the Chinese or somebody else have the capability to sink U.S. (and other nations too) carriers at will. Sort of to even the score? (That's all I'm going to say on Iraq, and that probably was too much) No mention of the Chinese invading Tibet? Or the Soviets taking half of Europe? Just as long as somebody comes along to take down those yanks a notch or two? Makes some sense to me -- I guess. I know as an American I'm tired of us being the only superpower. I sincerely wish other countries would take a hint from how we grew (less regulation, more creative chaotic growth, change of leadership on a regular basis) and catch up. That seems more productive than wishing ill or any person or country, but I guess wishing the other guy falls down is easier than picking up your own pace, eh? Not my cup of tea. Thanks for explaining it some more. Doesn't make a lot of sense, but then again, most public opinion things don't!

Rod 18y ago

I entirely agree that the post-WWII shine is wearing off, but that is a sign of things converging to their right place. The U.S. emerged as the western world's only superpower after a war which left Europe in ruins and half the world behind an Iron Curtain. That was an anomaly. There's a huge difference between ceasing to be the world's only superpower and collapsing. It seems to me that many people are blinded by schadenfreude indeed, while many others react way too negatively to this new reality.

sho 18y ago
Then we are in full agreement. The problem is that many Americans seem to have interpreted the post-WWII ascendancy of America as some kind of God-given mandate to reign forevermore at the top of Earth's and indeed the Universe's food chain, not for the temporary historical anomaly that it was. Those misguided people are in for a rude awakening, and none too soon. But yes - America will not collapse, of course, no matter how much anyone wishes it. Talk about your "too big to fail". And I for one am .. wary about the Chinese ever gaining as much relative power as the USA possessed at the height of its geopolitical dominance. Petty schadenfreude takes a pretty far back seat to that concern, let me tell you, so I for one am hoping the Yanks can pull out of their dive and go on to maintain a global counterweight to the Yellow Peril, soonest.

krschultz 18y ago

I agree that the "best country in history" is a bit obnoxious, but it is clearly a fact that the US is the only current super power. The obvious secondary one is China, but it is not there yet, and the EU as a whole has muscle but no individual country can match the US militarily or economically. Ironically, the current recession will likely wind up strengthing the US comparitive to the rest of the world. While we have 2 bickering parties trying to figure it out, the EU has a bunch and they are reacting more slowly than the US (now at least). China will fall because the US imports are their primary economic driver and services will pick up in the US prior to goods.

anamax 18y ago
> the EU as a whole has muscle but no individual country can match the US militarily or economically. Collectively, the EU may have economic muscle (well - they have GDP), but there's no collective military muscle.
- Rod 18y ago
  That's true. When there was trouble in the Balkans, Europe was uncapable of dealing with it and had to call Uncle Sam. On the other hand, the EU is good at using its economic muscle. For instance, in 2004 the EU expanded its territory by over 20% without firing a single shot ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_enlargement_of_the_European_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_enlargement_of_the_Europea... To cut a long story short: sometimes (relative) economic prosperity is more persuasive than military action.
  - anamax 18y ago
    > For instance, in 2004 the EU expanded its territory by over 20% without firing a single shot ;-) Annexing people who want to be annexed isn't a demonstration of muscle or pursuasion. Pursuasion is getting someone to do something that they don't want to do.