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I am very interested of opinions on these boards for it. My intuition is there is no free lunch - if this were the optimal brain wiring, we'd be there already.

I am very interested of opinions on these boards for it. My intuition is there is no free lunch - if this were the optimal brain wiring, we'd be there already. Is it the inevitable crash or sleep deprivation? I haven't done any hard research on the topic, so I am interested in first hand observations. We are the target audience of the article, even if the link title doesn't suggest it.

Elgabacho 14y ago
Depression for me. I've used it multiple times in law school and afterwards. I stopped because for a couple days afterwards I would get seriously depressed.
- ollysb 14y ago
  Were you sleeping less when using the pills?
  - Elgabacho 14y ago
    Yes, but not all the time. It depended on the situation. Sometimes I would go to bed at 10:30pm and wake at 3:00am and take some. I would do that for a couple days in a row (that didn't last long). Or I would stay up late then wake up at a normal time and take some. Most of the time I would sleep 8 hours and I would just take some because I would stay alert and focused all day (this most likely occurred on a Friday).
- Afforess 14y ago
  That's interesting because modafinil supposedly has mild antidepressant effects.
  - icelancer 14y ago
    And antidepressants tend to cause increase depression when you aren't taking them. So that seems perfectly normal.
ollysb 14y ago
It's quite possible the brain isn't optimised for the current availability of nutrients. Judging by the number of overweight people walking around it seems likely that evolution has selected for efficiency rather than performance. Given that our gene pool hasn't changed much in 250,000 years a little chemical nudge in the right direction is probably the way to go.
aaron695 14y ago
Well the no free lunch theory is I think wrong, we are vastly better off with modern medicines. We are already getting free lunches of longer and heather lives. My experience, obviously not scientific, with modafinil is mild mania, grumpiness/quick to anger (What I think is the tiredness coming through), increase concentration and attentiveness to a task. My intelligence goes down. Mixed with alcohol it can cause blackouts (It has a long half life so this can be a day or so later). Hard to sleep on. Euphoric enough to take recreationally. Listening to other people they have different effects. For me I'm not sure it's a effective drug. Because it's said long term you can build up tolerance I've always only done it one pill per week for small projects, so maybe doing it on a regular schedule it might stop some of the above negatives.
- manicdee 14y ago
  The "free lunches of longer and healthier lives" are due mostly to clean water and covered sewers, with the rest of medical science not mattering to the vast majority of people who don't suffer from life-limiting medical problems. Along with clean water and covered sewers we have improved working conditions (which medical science has contributed to without making everyone take medication), and a range of other quality-of-life changes that have occurred in society.
- balloot 14y ago
  You're missing his point, which is a reasonable one. If the human body truly functioned better with modafinil, then evolution would have given us humans that naturally produced modafinil. That isn't the case, so the assumption is there is some downside to the drug, and one that actually outweighs the positives. However, the article makes modafinil seems like an obviously positive thing and that taking the pill fixes some bug in natural human behavior.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    A few issues with that approach: Given that our brains have been under heavy evolution, there's no particular reason to think we're at a local optimum. The environment we've evolved for is not the one we are currently in. What was adaptive 1,000, 10,000, or 100,000 years ago may not be what we need today. Your definition of "optimum" and your genes' may differ wildly. For example your genes build disposable bodies for the same reason humans build disposable cars: there's no sense in working ever harder to keep the old model going when making a new one is easier. On the other hand, I've got a similar sentiment from a different perspective: it is surprisingly easy to to FUBAR an evolved system. We're still trying to figure out what effects electric light has on humans. [1] Anybody who thinks they've figured out all the subtle effects of a drug like this is fooling themselves. [1] e.g.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19401186 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19401186
danneu 14y ago
The brain didn't evolve to address the struggles of today. My ancestors weren't trying to stay mentally engaged to a computer screen for eight hours at a time.
roundingerror 14y ago
I've had a fair bit of experience (though not every day for months on end). From what I've read many people have a similar time, though some may end up with better results. If you're tired, you can use it as an alertness aid. If before, you would have fallen asleep at your desk from exhaustion, you will instead be able to continue to work (but still be fairly tired). Modafinil will allow you to continue on from the point of exhaustion and be able to function in some reduced capacity (50-60%). You will experience some periods of higher function (almost like waking up and being a bit tired, and then your mind clears a bit), basically you will alternate between tired and fine for a few hours, each period about an hour in duration. Taking modafinil in this manner isn’t especially recommended, but if you just spent all day / night putting out fires and you need to come in the next day to ensure everything is still running smoothly (but hard work isn’t expected), modafinil will do great here. Alternatively, I would recommend using it at the beginning of a normal day after a full night’s rest. This will result in some periods of clear headedness, and generally make it incredibly easy to focus on a task. I wouldn’t say I’m as ‘quick’ on modafinil, but I can certainly refactor code and slowly improve it for hours without feeling bored or getting distracted. I find that it makes me super calm as well. It definitely hampers creativity / big picture thinking, I wouldn’t do system design on modafinil, or even design for a subcomponent, I wouldn’t be at my best and might miss details or produce a subpar design. Basically, if you are just implementing a chunk of code, and have already figured out the details, modafinil will result in a good experience, you’ll make steady progress, your work will be of high quality, and the day will go by fairly quickly. aaron695 mentioned dose – 2-3 pills a week is fine. Alternating entire weeks on and off is fine. I would only take at most one pill a day, but some people take two and are fine. Tolerance builds up about as quickly as it does for Adderall IR. Definitely don’t go drinking on the drug, but if you typically have a drink with dinner you’ll be fine - just don’t expect to feel any of the effects from the alcohol. I’ve felt the beginnings of depression on other nootropics (specifically piracetam - I generally have a poor diet though, so that may have been my fault) – but haven’t had a problem with modafinil after an extended period of time. It will be difficult to sleep if you take it too late in the day, definitely dose in the morning. Essentially it’s a stronger, better version of caffeine (increased alertness, focus, can be used to increase performance with acute use, but with regular use tolerance builds and productivity decreases).
icelancer 14y ago
>if this were the optimal brain wiring, we'd be there already Evolution isn't an "optimal" process. It is very random. And very slow.

Elgabacho 14y ago

Depression for me. I've used it multiple times in law school and afterwards. I stopped because for a couple days afterwards I would get seriously depressed.

ollysb 14y ago
Were you sleeping less when using the pills?
- Elgabacho 14y ago
  Yes, but not all the time. It depended on the situation. Sometimes I would go to bed at 10:30pm and wake at 3:00am and take some. I would do that for a couple days in a row (that didn't last long). Or I would stay up late then wake up at a normal time and take some. Most of the time I would sleep 8 hours and I would just take some because I would stay alert and focused all day (this most likely occurred on a Friday).
Afforess 14y ago
That's interesting because modafinil supposedly has mild antidepressant effects.
- icelancer 14y ago
  And antidepressants tend to cause increase depression when you aren't taking them. So that seems perfectly normal.

ollysb 14y ago

It's quite possible the brain isn't optimised for the current availability of nutrients. Judging by the number of overweight people walking around it seems likely that evolution has selected for efficiency rather than performance. Given that our gene pool hasn't changed much in 250,000 years a little chemical nudge in the right direction is probably the way to go.

aaron695 14y ago

Well the no free lunch theory is I think wrong, we are vastly better off with modern medicines. We are already getting free lunches of longer and heather lives. My experience, obviously not scientific, with modafinil is mild mania, grumpiness/quick to anger (What I think is the tiredness coming through), increase concentration and attentiveness to a task. My intelligence goes down. Mixed with alcohol it can cause blackouts (It has a long half life so this can be a day or so later). Hard to sleep on. Euphoric enough to take recreationally. Listening to other people they have different effects. For me I'm not sure it's a effective drug. Because it's said long term you can build up tolerance I've always only done it one pill per week for small projects, so maybe doing it on a regular schedule it might stop some of the above negatives.

manicdee 14y ago
The "free lunches of longer and healthier lives" are due mostly to clean water and covered sewers, with the rest of medical science not mattering to the vast majority of people who don't suffer from life-limiting medical problems. Along with clean water and covered sewers we have improved working conditions (which medical science has contributed to without making everyone take medication), and a range of other quality-of-life changes that have occurred in society.
balloot 14y ago
You're missing his point, which is a reasonable one. If the human body truly functioned better with modafinil, then evolution would have given us humans that naturally produced modafinil. That isn't the case, so the assumption is there is some downside to the drug, and one that actually outweighs the positives. However, the article makes modafinil seems like an obviously positive thing and that taking the pill fixes some bug in natural human behavior.
- wpietri 14y ago
  A few issues with that approach: Given that our brains have been under heavy evolution, there's no particular reason to think we're at a local optimum. The environment we've evolved for is not the one we are currently in. What was adaptive 1,000, 10,000, or 100,000 years ago may not be what we need today. Your definition of "optimum" and your genes' may differ wildly. For example your genes build disposable bodies for the same reason humans build disposable cars: there's no sense in working ever harder to keep the old model going when making a new one is easier. On the other hand, I've got a similar sentiment from a different perspective: it is surprisingly easy to to FUBAR an evolved system. We're still trying to figure out what effects electric light has on humans. [1] Anybody who thinks they've figured out all the subtle effects of a drug like this is fooling themselves. [1] e.g.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19401186 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19401186

danneu 14y ago

The brain didn't evolve to address the struggles of today. My ancestors weren't trying to stay mentally engaged to a computer screen for eight hours at a time.

roundingerror 14y ago

I've had a fair bit of experience (though not every day for months on end). From what I've read many people have a similar time, though some may end up with better results. If you're tired, you can use it as an alertness aid. If before, you would have fallen asleep at your desk from exhaustion, you will instead be able to continue to work (but still be fairly tired). Modafinil will allow you to continue on from the point of exhaustion and be able to function in some reduced capacity (50-60%). You will experience some periods of higher function (almost like waking up and being a bit tired, and then your mind clears a bit), basically you will alternate between tired and fine for a few hours, each period about an hour in duration. Taking modafinil in this manner isn’t especially recommended, but if you just spent all day / night putting out fires and you need to come in the next day to ensure everything is still running smoothly (but hard work isn’t expected), modafinil will do great here. Alternatively, I would recommend using it at the beginning of a normal day after a full night’s rest. This will result in some periods of clear headedness, and generally make it incredibly easy to focus on a task. I wouldn’t say I’m as ‘quick’ on modafinil, but I can certainly refactor code and slowly improve it for hours without feeling bored or getting distracted. I find that it makes me super calm as well. It definitely hampers creativity / big picture thinking, I wouldn’t do system design on modafinil, or even design for a subcomponent, I wouldn’t be at my best and might miss details or produce a subpar design. Basically, if you are just implementing a chunk of code, and have already figured out the details, modafinil will result in a good experience, you’ll make steady progress, your work will be of high quality, and the day will go by fairly quickly. aaron695 mentioned dose – 2-3 pills a week is fine. Alternating entire weeks on and off is fine. I would only take at most one pill a day, but some people take two and are fine. Tolerance builds up about as quickly as it does for Adderall IR. Definitely don’t go drinking on the drug, but if you typically have a drink with dinner you’ll be fine - just don’t expect to feel any of the effects from the alcohol. I’ve felt the beginnings of depression on other nootropics (specifically piracetam - I generally have a poor diet though, so that may have been my fault) – but haven’t had a problem with modafinil after an extended period of time. It will be difficult to sleep if you take it too late in the day, definitely dose in the morning. Essentially it’s a stronger, better version of caffeine (increased alertness, focus, can be used to increase performance with acute use, but with regular use tolerance builds and productivity decreases).

icelancer 14y ago

>if this were the optimal brain wiring, we'd be there already Evolution isn't an "optimal" process. It is very random. And very slow.