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Those who want to trust BTC banks can do so. But now people have the choice not to trust them and instead manage their wallet themselves. You don't have that ch

Those who want to trust BTC banks can do so. But now people have the choice not to trust them and instead manage their wallet themselves. You don't have that choice in the current banking system.

itcmcgrath 14y ago
When I moved to the US, I spent a week+ living on cash until I had my bank account set up. Being able to buy pre-paid VISA cards for cash at retailers solves the part of the online issue as well. You can be a 'mattress' banker with cash if you wish, securing your house just like you would secure your computer. Not sure there is as big as a difference between BTC and the current as people would lead you to believe. Emphasis on as since there obviously are differences - at least until new laws get thought up and passed.
- aneth4 14y ago
  > Not sure there is as big as a difference between BTC and the current as people would lead you to believe 1) The value of your card is unlikely to be stolen by a hacker, unless you make an online purchase. 2) If someone spends the value of your card, you have recourse 3) Bitcoin is used to store much large amounts of money than you likely had on your VISA card
fusiongyro 14y ago
You're presenting it as a choice between two equally viable options, but the point is that you really have to manage it yourself.
- wereHamster 14y ago
  Yes, right now using these online wallets is not really an option if you are at all concerned about your bitcoins. But it will be in the future. Because online wallets are not less secure than an E-Banking account at a conventional bank. The difference is that banks spend a lot more money on security than the current online wallet operators (think penetration testing, code review, dedicated security staff, option to have two-factor authentication etc).
  - fusiongyro 14y ago
    You make strong points, but (and without wanting to rehash some tedious arguments) there is still the fundamental difference that "e-banking" is not dealing with "e-cash" the way Bitcoin is "e-cash." Different members of the audience perceive this variously as a benefit or a drawback, but either way it will complicate security.
  - tempaccount9473 14y ago
    > Because online wallets are not less secure than an E-Banking account at a conventional bank. Nope. Look at everything you can do with your online bank account. Transfers to other accounts, wires, bill pay, stop payments, ACH (if you're lucky), etc. What's the common there? All those transaction are reversable. This makes it hard for hackers to steal money from banks, they need an unwitting third party (mule) to accept an account transfer, and then go to a branch or ATM to withdraw cash. So it's not like your online banking accounts are secure, you can purchase any number of stolen online banking credentials from trojan/botnet operators. The price for those accounts is quite low, because the real effort is in finding unwitting mules. The problem with bitcoin, is that bitcoin transfers are irreversable. So banks will never be able to protect bitcoin wallets effectively, because they can't rely on being able to reverse transactions for compromised accounts.
    - itcmcgrath 14y ago
      Excellent points. I worked in a bank designing systems at one point. Even with methods to retrieve money lost through fraudulent transactions, they still had monthly 'Fraud' budgets much larger than my salary for money they couldn't retrieve. Imagine BTC services 'Fraud Budget' when all transactions are non-reversible. Banks do have a massive advantage in 'Practical' security as well in the form of a 'big stick' aided by the government. Since the practical risks of fraud against a bank are much higher than fraud against an online BTC service (who is the FBI more likely to help), the exposure would be much bigger.
    - mootothemax 14y ago
      Do banks regularly buy lists of their own compromised accounts? If not, why? Surely it'd be cheaper in the long run?

Those who want to trust BTC banks can do so. But now people have the choice not to trust them and instead manage their wallet themselves. You don't have that choice in the current banking system.

itcmcgrath 14y ago

When I moved to the US, I spent a week+ living on cash until I had my bank account set up. Being able to buy pre-paid VISA cards for cash at retailers solves the part of the online issue as well. You can be a 'mattress' banker with cash if you wish, securing your house just like you would secure your computer. Not sure there is as big as a difference between BTC and the current as people would lead you to believe. Emphasis on as since there obviously are differences - at least until new laws get thought up and passed.

aneth4 14y ago
> Not sure there is as big as a difference between BTC and the current as people would lead you to believe 1) The value of your card is unlikely to be stolen by a hacker, unless you make an online purchase. 2) If someone spends the value of your card, you have recourse 3) Bitcoin is used to store much large amounts of money than you likely had on your VISA card

fusiongyro 14y ago

You're presenting it as a choice between two equally viable options, but the point is that you really have to manage it yourself.

wereHamster 14y ago
Yes, right now using these online wallets is not really an option if you are at all concerned about your bitcoins. But it will be in the future. Because online wallets are not less secure than an E-Banking account at a conventional bank. The difference is that banks spend a lot more money on security than the current online wallet operators (think penetration testing, code review, dedicated security staff, option to have two-factor authentication etc).
- fusiongyro 14y ago
  You make strong points, but (and without wanting to rehash some tedious arguments) there is still the fundamental difference that "e-banking" is not dealing with "e-cash" the way Bitcoin is "e-cash." Different members of the audience perceive this variously as a benefit or a drawback, but either way it will complicate security.
- tempaccount9473 14y ago
  > Because online wallets are not less secure than an E-Banking account at a conventional bank. Nope. Look at everything you can do with your online bank account. Transfers to other accounts, wires, bill pay, stop payments, ACH (if you're lucky), etc. What's the common there? All those transaction are reversable. This makes it hard for hackers to steal money from banks, they need an unwitting third party (mule) to accept an account transfer, and then go to a branch or ATM to withdraw cash. So it's not like your online banking accounts are secure, you can purchase any number of stolen online banking credentials from trojan/botnet operators. The price for those accounts is quite low, because the real effort is in finding unwitting mules. The problem with bitcoin, is that bitcoin transfers are irreversable. So banks will never be able to protect bitcoin wallets effectively, because they can't rely on being able to reverse transactions for compromised accounts.
  - itcmcgrath 14y ago
    Excellent points. I worked in a bank designing systems at one point. Even with methods to retrieve money lost through fraudulent transactions, they still had monthly 'Fraud' budgets much larger than my salary for money they couldn't retrieve. Imagine BTC services 'Fraud Budget' when all transactions are non-reversible. Banks do have a massive advantage in 'Practical' security as well in the form of a 'big stick' aided by the government. Since the practical risks of fraud against a bank are much higher than fraud against an online BTC service (who is the FBI more likely to help), the exposure would be much bigger.
  - mootothemax 14y ago
    Do banks regularly buy lists of their own compromised accounts? If not, why? Surely it'd be cheaper in the long run?