6 ms·

The housing advice in the article is correct - those are the ideal areas. However, it fails to mention the extreme costs and competitive nature of finding a pla

by rdouble 14y ago

The housing advice in the article is correct - those are the ideal areas. However, it fails to mention the extreme costs and competitive nature of finding a place in those areas. Living in Berkeley is not a good choice if your internship is in the South Bay. Even if your job is accessible by BART, Berkeley near a BART station is not inexpensive. The nice areas of Oakland are similarly expensive and the not-nice areas of Oakland are a few orders of magnitude more dangerous than the rest of the Bay Area. I used to live in an "affordable" part of Berkeley and had to spend about an hour each way getting to work with walking on both sides + BART. Berkeley and parts of Oakland like Rockridge have their charms, but I do not recommend them if you have the option of living closer to work.

dr_doom 14y ago
Is Oakland really that bad? I really want the most affordable place I can find. I'm not too scared of crime, I have guns and grew up in a lower class neighborhood, but am worried about theft when I'm not home. edit: I would basically like to live in a neighborhood like Pilsen in Chicago. Affordable, working class, mexican, and close to transit. Any recommendations?
- jbkring 14y ago
  Oakland is like any other city. There are safe neighborhoods and dangerous neighborhoods. Some of the safer ones are: Temescal, Adam's Point, Grand Lake/Cleveland Heights, Piedmont & Rockridge (not technically Oakland).
  - cpeterso 14y ago
    Rockridge is definitely part of Oakland, but Piedmont is a separate city. Piedmont seceded from Oakland in 1907 and is completely surrounded by Oakland. I've never heard of any other city engulfed within another.
    - drbaskin 14y ago
      This property of Piedmont is not even unique within the Bay Area! Fremont (the fourth-largest city in the Bay Area) has an enclave of its own, Newark, which is its own city yet completely surrounded by Fremont.
      - notacoward 14y ago
        Hamtramck and Highland Park (together) are completely surrounded by Detroit. Or used to be, anyway.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - petercooper 14y ago
      Just for fun.. The Vatican City is surrounded by Rome, though it's not only a city but a nation state. If you want California, though, Los Angeles has several enclaved cities, such as San Fernando.
  - rdl 14y ago
    Absolutely true. For an intern without a car, the critical factor is probably BART access. The best non-ghetto + BART at a low price is probably around 19th street, so "Uptown", toward Adams Point. There are apartments in the $1200 1BR range, vs. 2-3x that for short term in SF (!!!). I'd still probably suggest trying to find a roommate, sublet, or company sponsored thing, even if it's tiny or sketchy, nearer work and social stuff, in SF or PA/MV, though. Temescal (which is farther up, near MacArthur BART) is also a good choice. There's a weird auto-dealer wasteland in between, which was a horrible zoning choice by Oakland, but they're working on redeveloping that, so it should be a continuous area of interesting stuff from ~16th to ~40th at some point. OTOH, I live in Oakland and drive. I've never gone to anything in Oakland except Amazon locker pickup, Whole Foods (but prefer Berkeley places), and the 580/880 onramps. I step into my car in an underground garage and essentially don't get out until I'm in the civilized/Promised Land (Peninsula). Berkeley is also maybe more fun as an intern, even if you work in SF, and has BART. I'm not sure what summer housing is like there -- I'd assume there are vacancies in places rented to students during the year over the summer. Nitpicking: Piedmont is an enclave contained within Oakland (but independent), but Rockridge is part of Oakland. (it's also "Adams Point", not Adam's Point)
- rdouble 14y ago
  Oakland is the only place in the Bay Area I've been held up at gunpoint. Property theft is a problem in both Oakland and San Francisco. Less so in the South Bay. Even if you are not scared of crime, dealing with the aftermath of a robbery or burglary is a headache. Oakland has a lot of boosters but I have never found much compelling about it. I find it similar to southern-midwest cities, whereas SF is a unique place, unlike most other cities in the world. Edit: it's hard to compare places in the Bay Area to Chicago neighborhoods. There are plenty of hispanic areas near public transport. They aren't like Pilsen, though. The word "affordable" also doesn't mean the same thing.
  - dr_doom 14y ago
    Fair enough, thanks for the advice though. I guess I'll just have to walk around and explore for a few days.
- cpeterso 14y ago
  I live in North Oakland, a nicer part of town. Even here, people get mugged at the BART station in broad daylight. Last year, we had a string of restaurant "take-over" robberies. The crime problem is pretty bad and getting worse. Most of the murders, 126 last year and 3 just this past weekend, are gang-related and localized to West and East Oakland ("the Flats"). The safer parts of town are North Oakland, near Berkeley, and the Hills. Per capita, Oakland is the nation's #1 city for robberies, #1 for vehicle thefts, #3 for violent crime, and #4 for murders. Oakland has only 15 police officers per 10,000 residents, half as many as SF and one-third as many NYC and Chicago. Oakland is depressing because the city has so much potential. It is centrally located in the Bay Area; close to SF by BART, car, and ferry; has an international airport; and has a large shipping port. But many big employers are scared away by crime, so people have to leave Oakland to work or shop, further depressing the city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate#2011_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_...
  - rdl 14y ago
    Oakland PD is also one of the worst departments in the Bay Area (although BART PD and EPA PD take the cake).
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Is Oakland really that bad? Well, plenty of people live there and all, but a few visits combined with Wikipedia [1] have convinced me that I don't particularly want to live there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r...
- aaroneous 14y ago
  There are bad neighborhoods, but it's fairly easy to know where they are. Being street smart + avoiding hotspot areas will dramatically decrease your risk. The rest of the city has plenty of natural beauty, affordable living, central location, interesting + diverse people, great food, gorgeous weather and fun nightlife.
- dgesang 14y ago
  > I have guns > worried about theft when I'm not home. Wow, true U.S. citizen's problems. I wouldn't even think about crime rates or the need to carry a gun when looking for a place to stay. Come to Europe, it's better.
mmanfrin 14y ago
The 'not so nice' areas of Oakland aren't bad, as long as you stay out of East Oakland. I'm living in West Oakland right now. My rent is 1/3 the cost of an equivalent room in SF, and my commute is shorter (7 minute BART ride). I feel perfectly safe.
- rdouble 14y ago
  Oakland's crime problems are partially structural. It is much more car oriented and spread out, with a lot of dead zones where nobody is around. Thus it's much easier for a group of people to drive up behind you and rob you and then drive away. Personally, I would not suggest West Oakland unless you are broke. I felt safe, too, until I got jacked.
  - mmanfrin 14y ago
    West Oakland's crime rates a pretty comparable to SFs. I've been robbed more in SF than in Oakland.
    - xxpor 14y ago
      How many times have you been robbed??
kemiller 14y ago
Nowhere in Oakland is an order of magnitude worse. Worse, yes, but few places are that bad. Parts of the Mission, and certainly the Tenderloin (both in the sweet spot on this guy's map) are worse than anywhere BART-accessible in Oakland except West Oakland and maybe Lake Merritt/Fruitvale. If you're working in the South Bay, yeah, don't live there. But Temescal, for example, is a great option if you're working in the city. Great city feel, lots of cool stuff, and you're still only 20 minutes from the city. That's a shorter commute than many parts of the city itself. It's expensive my national standards, but still cheaper than the city.
- rdouble 14y ago
  You are right, an order of magnitude was an exaggeration. But Oakland's citywide crime stats in most categories are double/triple that of San Francisco. That said, I don't think crime is the main reason to not live in the East Bay when you are doing an internship. Minimizing transport time to work and/or recreation is why you don't want to live out there. If you are working in SF, live in SF. If work is in the south bay, live in the south bay...or maybe live in SF. It will be expensive but an internship should cover it. If the internship doesn't cover it you picked the wrong internship.
  - kemiller 14y ago
    And the point is, depending on where you work, the East Bay is often "closer" in terms of time spent than some parts of the City, because BART is so much faster than Muni or cycling. The most important thing is to live near other interns. If everyone's in the city, live in the city. If you want to get a house with a few people, or just prefer a more laid-back vibe, the East Bay is a great option.
    - thrownaway2424 14y ago
      Yeah, I moved to Oakland because I was tired of my business partner, who lived in West Oakland, getting to my office in SoMA in ten minutes while I endured typically 35-45 minute Muni bus rides from only two miles away in SF, with an astonishing variance of arrival time. As for the crime in Oakland, some guy got shot in front of his own house in the Mission this morning. People arriving for their internships, not being familiar with SF neighborhoods, shouldn't get the impression that the Mission is some kind of picnic.
plorkyeran 14y ago
I don't live in an affordable part of Berkeley and it's still close to an hour each way to SOMA (~10 minutes walk each way, ~30 minutes on BART for Downtown Berkeley -> Mongomery, and a few minutes of slack to avoid missing the occasional train).

by rdouble 14y ago

dr_doom 14y ago

Is Oakland really that bad? I really want the most affordable place I can find. I'm not too scared of crime, I have guns and grew up in a lower class neighborhood, but am worried about theft when I'm not home. edit: I would basically like to live in a neighborhood like Pilsen in Chicago. Affordable, working class, mexican, and close to transit. Any recommendations?

jbkring 14y ago
Oakland is like any other city. There are safe neighborhoods and dangerous neighborhoods. Some of the safer ones are: Temescal, Adam's Point, Grand Lake/Cleveland Heights, Piedmont & Rockridge (not technically Oakland).
- cpeterso 14y ago
  Rockridge is definitely part of Oakland, but Piedmont is a separate city. Piedmont seceded from Oakland in 1907 and is completely surrounded by Oakland. I've never heard of any other city engulfed within another.
  - drbaskin 14y ago
    This property of Piedmont is not even unique within the Bay Area! Fremont (the fourth-largest city in the Bay Area) has an enclave of its own, Newark, which is its own city yet completely surrounded by Fremont.
    - notacoward 14y ago
      Hamtramck and Highland Park (together) are completely surrounded by Detroit. Or used to be, anyway.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - petercooper 14y ago
    Just for fun.. The Vatican City is surrounded by Rome, though it's not only a city but a nation state. If you want California, though, Los Angeles has several enclaved cities, such as San Fernando.
- rdl 14y ago
  Absolutely true. For an intern without a car, the critical factor is probably BART access. The best non-ghetto + BART at a low price is probably around 19th street, so "Uptown", toward Adams Point. There are apartments in the $1200 1BR range, vs. 2-3x that for short term in SF (!!!). I'd still probably suggest trying to find a roommate, sublet, or company sponsored thing, even if it's tiny or sketchy, nearer work and social stuff, in SF or PA/MV, though. Temescal (which is farther up, near MacArthur BART) is also a good choice. There's a weird auto-dealer wasteland in between, which was a horrible zoning choice by Oakland, but they're working on redeveloping that, so it should be a continuous area of interesting stuff from ~16th to ~40th at some point. OTOH, I live in Oakland and drive. I've never gone to anything in Oakland except Amazon locker pickup, Whole Foods (but prefer Berkeley places), and the 580/880 onramps. I step into my car in an underground garage and essentially don't get out until I'm in the civilized/Promised Land (Peninsula). Berkeley is also maybe more fun as an intern, even if you work in SF, and has BART. I'm not sure what summer housing is like there -- I'd assume there are vacancies in places rented to students during the year over the summer. Nitpicking: Piedmont is an enclave contained within Oakland (but independent), but Rockridge is part of Oakland. (it's also "Adams Point", not Adam's Point)
rdouble 14y ago
Oakland is the only place in the Bay Area I've been held up at gunpoint. Property theft is a problem in both Oakland and San Francisco. Less so in the South Bay. Even if you are not scared of crime, dealing with the aftermath of a robbery or burglary is a headache. Oakland has a lot of boosters but I have never found much compelling about it. I find it similar to southern-midwest cities, whereas SF is a unique place, unlike most other cities in the world. Edit: it's hard to compare places in the Bay Area to Chicago neighborhoods. There are plenty of hispanic areas near public transport. They aren't like Pilsen, though. The word "affordable" also doesn't mean the same thing.
- dr_doom 14y ago
  Fair enough, thanks for the advice though. I guess I'll just have to walk around and explore for a few days.
cpeterso 14y ago
I live in North Oakland, a nicer part of town. Even here, people get mugged at the BART station in broad daylight. Last year, we had a string of restaurant "take-over" robberies. The crime problem is pretty bad and getting worse. Most of the murders, 126 last year and 3 just this past weekend, are gang-related and localized to West and East Oakland ("the Flats"). The safer parts of town are North Oakland, near Berkeley, and the Hills. Per capita, Oakland is the nation's #1 city for robberies, #1 for vehicle thefts, #3 for violent crime, and #4 for murders. Oakland has only 15 police officers per 10,000 residents, half as many as SF and one-third as many NYC and Chicago. Oakland is depressing because the city has so much potential. It is centrally located in the Bay Area; close to SF by BART, car, and ferry; has an international airport; and has a large shipping port. But many big employers are scared away by crime, so people have to leave Oakland to work or shop, further depressing the city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate#2011_data https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_...
- rdl 14y ago
  Oakland PD is also one of the worst departments in the Bay Area (although BART PD and EPA PD take the cake).
sliverstorm 14y ago
Is Oakland really that bad? Well, plenty of people live there and all, but a few visits combined with Wikipedia [1] have convinced me that I don't particularly want to live there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r...
aaroneous 14y ago
There are bad neighborhoods, but it's fairly easy to know where they are. Being street smart + avoiding hotspot areas will dramatically decrease your risk. The rest of the city has plenty of natural beauty, affordable living, central location, interesting + diverse people, great food, gorgeous weather and fun nightlife.
dgesang 14y ago
> I have guns > worried about theft when I'm not home. Wow, true U.S. citizen's problems. I wouldn't even think about crime rates or the need to carry a gun when looking for a place to stay. Come to Europe, it's better.

mmanfrin 14y ago

The 'not so nice' areas of Oakland aren't bad, as long as you stay out of East Oakland. I'm living in West Oakland right now. My rent is 1/3 the cost of an equivalent room in SF, and my commute is shorter (7 minute BART ride). I feel perfectly safe.

rdouble 14y ago
Oakland's crime problems are partially structural. It is much more car oriented and spread out, with a lot of dead zones where nobody is around. Thus it's much easier for a group of people to drive up behind you and rob you and then drive away. Personally, I would not suggest West Oakland unless you are broke. I felt safe, too, until I got jacked.
- mmanfrin 14y ago
  West Oakland's crime rates a pretty comparable to SFs. I've been robbed more in SF than in Oakland.
  - xxpor 14y ago
    How many times have you been robbed??

kemiller 14y ago

Nowhere in Oakland is an order of magnitude worse. Worse, yes, but few places are that bad. Parts of the Mission, and certainly the Tenderloin (both in the sweet spot on this guy's map) are worse than anywhere BART-accessible in Oakland except West Oakland and maybe Lake Merritt/Fruitvale. If you're working in the South Bay, yeah, don't live there. But Temescal, for example, is a great option if you're working in the city. Great city feel, lots of cool stuff, and you're still only 20 minutes from the city. That's a shorter commute than many parts of the city itself. It's expensive my national standards, but still cheaper than the city.

rdouble 14y ago
You are right, an order of magnitude was an exaggeration. But Oakland's citywide crime stats in most categories are double/triple that of San Francisco. That said, I don't think crime is the main reason to not live in the East Bay when you are doing an internship. Minimizing transport time to work and/or recreation is why you don't want to live out there. If you are working in SF, live in SF. If work is in the south bay, live in the south bay...or maybe live in SF. It will be expensive but an internship should cover it. If the internship doesn't cover it you picked the wrong internship.
- kemiller 14y ago
  And the point is, depending on where you work, the East Bay is often "closer" in terms of time spent than some parts of the City, because BART is so much faster than Muni or cycling. The most important thing is to live near other interns. If everyone's in the city, live in the city. If you want to get a house with a few people, or just prefer a more laid-back vibe, the East Bay is a great option.
  - thrownaway2424 14y ago
    Yeah, I moved to Oakland because I was tired of my business partner, who lived in West Oakland, getting to my office in SoMA in ten minutes while I endured typically 35-45 minute Muni bus rides from only two miles away in SF, with an astonishing variance of arrival time. As for the crime in Oakland, some guy got shot in front of his own house in the Mission this morning. People arriving for their internships, not being familiar with SF neighborhoods, shouldn't get the impression that the Mission is some kind of picnic.

plorkyeran 14y ago

I don't live in an affordable part of Berkeley and it's still close to an hour each way to SOMA (~10 minutes walk each way, ~30 minutes on BART for Downtown Berkeley -> Mongomery, and a few minutes of slack to avoid missing the occasional train).