5 ms·

You want to hack the software of the car that can potentially kill you and others when the controls don't work as expected. Really? Let's see why I think that's

You want to hack the software of the car that can potentially kill you and others when the controls don't work as expected. Really? Let's see why I think that's not an option: * you loose warranty (on $50k, that's big) * you get liable for any damage your car does because of software failure no matter if it's because of your modifications or not * you can get injured or killed because the car is not obeying your command This is not a computer game we are talking about. I wouldn't apply the same metrics.

qb45 14y ago
People already mod cars. Many of these mods are significantly more complicated than changing one number in some EEPROM and yet almost all accidents are still caused by driver error. There is a very good incentive to not screw up your car.
lawnchair_larry 14y ago
None of your points are really correct. Warranty is only void for specific repairs determined to be directly caused by the modification. You are never liable for anything that you didn't cause. It's not as if warranty and liability are a binary value that changes if any part of the car becomes tainted. We've been modifying cars long before computer games, and in far more intrusive ways.
jotux 14y ago
So should legislation be introduced to lock the hood of current conventional vehicles to keep people from making modifications to them? Why are software modifications on an EV any more dangerous than software and/or mechanical modifications on a conventional vehicle?
jlgreco 14y ago
Regardless of how smart of a thing it is to do, many people hack their cars today. There is even a very sizable industry in place to support it.
jacquesm 14y ago
I've restored an old car from the ground up. That was lots of fun. One day someone will do it to a model 'S'. Working on old vehicles is interesting because you get to be creative because of a lack of manufacturer supplied parts. Welcome to the aftermarket, where nothing is too crazy. Want to slap a 160 HP engine into your classic mini? That's possible: http://jamesfawcett.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=7&Itemid=11 http://jamesfawcett.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&#... Then you go through road approval just like everybody else and you insure it. One day every car driven today will be out of warranty, you are always liable for your vehicle, that's why you insure it and you make sure you pass the road approval tests, you can always be injured or killed when you are driving, software or hardware doesn't matter much. Forgot the safety on one of your steering rods? Too bad! This is 'hacker news', modifying stuff and finding the edges of what you can do with ordinary household items (such as cars) is one of the things we do here. The fact that life is risky is fairly well known but as far as I know it hasn't stopped anybody from sticking their fingers in places where they don't belong.
- relix 14y ago
  If you're modifying the software, such that in certain edge cases your battery overheats and explodes, or the brakes stop working, does it still make sense to rely on road approval to deem a car road-worthy, and get appropriate insurance? Since all software has bugs, I feel this is an interesting discussion point even if you don't modify it. Basically, should road approval include a check on the software? (which would be nearly impossible) Or will insurance companies just ask if you modified the software, and charge you an appropriately higher price? Is that how they do it with cars mechanically upgraded like you describe?
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    Sigh. Look, I understand that you're not comfortable with people modifying stuff, but please understand that people designed it in the first place and that some of us are perfectly comfortable with entrusting our lives to our own creations / modifications. In fact, I feel rather more comfortable driving cars that I've worked on compared to those that I haven't worked on because I know those cars on a much more intimate level, both the good bits and the bad bits. And bad bits that you don't know about can cause surprises. One of the minis I rebuilt had completely rusted out sides, you could see the pavement with far too much clarity after cleaning out the rust: http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/cars/minis/greeni+1993mini/05292007061.jpg.html http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/cars/minis/greeni+1993mini/0529... One day in Canada a mechanic in a car alignment shop that I won't name here told me that my left front wheel could not be aligned. I immediately jumped into the pit and started looking at the main components of the drivetrain and sure enough the left front diff was cracked all along its length. Note that this guy was a professional that did alignments for a living and I'm nothing but an amateur. But at least I do know when and where to start looking for real trouble. A broken diff can seize up without warning (because all the lubricant will have run out) and can cause your neat Jeep Grand Cherokee to do cartwheels. Working on car software is old hat to many, from increases in power (messing around with fuel injection tables) to fixing production issues that manufacturers never bothered to do recalls for to reverse engineering the software to be able to maintain older cars and to get them past emissions testing. Some of the people in the modding scene have absolutely awesome skills, on par with the best in the industry (and since they're working their way backwards from the designs in some ways more impressive). All software has bugs, indeed, including the software that your vehicle came with in the first place. If you mess with the charge curves on your batteries then you'll likely reap what you sow (I'd stay the hell away from there), but if it does overheat or explodes that will be just the same overheating or explosion that you could expect in a regular accident. Likely your EV has been designed around such failures, if it hasn't then you're in trouble even if you don't mod it. If the brakes stop working then you're in trouble (and so is everybody within striking distance), but brakes failing due to a software bug that you induced is a thing that I've yet to come across. Most brake systems have mechanical back-up, and if all that fails you can still reach for the 'oh-shit' lever, aka the emergency brake. Anybody that has ever had a master cylinder fail on them knows what I mean. Insurance companies deal in statistics. If you register your vehicle by brand and type then they'll quote you a value. If you plan on doing experiments with the drive train, if you increase the stock power by more than 20%, if you start messing with the structural components of the car (which I think is far scarier than any software mod) then there are procedures on how to deal with that. In some countries insurance companies will insure anything that moves, in others you need to go through a complex formalized procedure that tries to ascertain whether or not your car is fit for the road. As with everything you mess with: know what you are doing and err on the side of caution, especially when lives are involved. But don't let that stop you from learning skills and applying those skills to real world hardware. After all, if everybody would stick to theory we'd never have a lot of nice things.
klinquist 14y ago
I have software to do some pretty significant hacks to my BMW... and yes, I do it and enjoy it.

qb45 14y ago

People already mod cars. Many of these mods are significantly more complicated than changing one number in some EEPROM and yet almost all accidents are still caused by driver error. There is a very good incentive to not screw up your car.

lawnchair_larry 14y ago

None of your points are really correct. Warranty is only void for specific repairs determined to be directly caused by the modification. You are never liable for anything that you didn't cause. It's not as if warranty and liability are a binary value that changes if any part of the car becomes tainted. We've been modifying cars long before computer games, and in far more intrusive ways.

jotux 14y ago

So should legislation be introduced to lock the hood of current conventional vehicles to keep people from making modifications to them? Why are software modifications on an EV any more dangerous than software and/or mechanical modifications on a conventional vehicle?

jlgreco 14y ago

Regardless of how smart of a thing it is to do, many people hack their cars today. There is even a very sizable industry in place to support it.

jacquesm 14y ago

I've restored an old car from the ground up. That was lots of fun. One day someone will do it to a model 'S'. Working on old vehicles is interesting because you get to be creative because of a lack of manufacturer supplied parts. Welcome to the aftermarket, where nothing is too crazy. Want to slap a 160 HP engine into your classic mini? That's possible: http://jamesfawcett.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=7&Itemid=11 http://jamesfawcett.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&#... Then you go through road approval just like everybody else and you insure it. One day every car driven today will be out of warranty, you are always liable for your vehicle, that's why you insure it and you make sure you pass the road approval tests, you can always be injured or killed when you are driving, software or hardware doesn't matter much. Forgot the safety on one of your steering rods? Too bad! This is 'hacker news', modifying stuff and finding the edges of what you can do with ordinary household items (such as cars) is one of the things we do here. The fact that life is risky is fairly well known but as far as I know it hasn't stopped anybody from sticking their fingers in places where they don't belong.

relix 14y ago
If you're modifying the software, such that in certain edge cases your battery overheats and explodes, or the brakes stop working, does it still make sense to rely on road approval to deem a car road-worthy, and get appropriate insurance? Since all software has bugs, I feel this is an interesting discussion point even if you don't modify it. Basically, should road approval include a check on the software? (which would be nearly impossible) Or will insurance companies just ask if you modified the software, and charge you an appropriately higher price? Is that how they do it with cars mechanically upgraded like you describe?
- jacquesm 14y ago
  Sigh. Look, I understand that you're not comfortable with people modifying stuff, but please understand that people designed it in the first place and that some of us are perfectly comfortable with entrusting our lives to our own creations / modifications. In fact, I feel rather more comfortable driving cars that I've worked on compared to those that I haven't worked on because I know those cars on a much more intimate level, both the good bits and the bad bits. And bad bits that you don't know about can cause surprises. One of the minis I rebuilt had completely rusted out sides, you could see the pavement with far too much clarity after cleaning out the rust: http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/cars/minis/greeni+1993mini/05292007061.jpg.html http://pics.ww.com/v/jacques/cars/minis/greeni+1993mini/0529... One day in Canada a mechanic in a car alignment shop that I won't name here told me that my left front wheel could not be aligned. I immediately jumped into the pit and started looking at the main components of the drivetrain and sure enough the left front diff was cracked all along its length. Note that this guy was a professional that did alignments for a living and I'm nothing but an amateur. But at least I do know when and where to start looking for real trouble. A broken diff can seize up without warning (because all the lubricant will have run out) and can cause your neat Jeep Grand Cherokee to do cartwheels. Working on car software is old hat to many, from increases in power (messing around with fuel injection tables) to fixing production issues that manufacturers never bothered to do recalls for to reverse engineering the software to be able to maintain older cars and to get them past emissions testing. Some of the people in the modding scene have absolutely awesome skills, on par with the best in the industry (and since they're working their way backwards from the designs in some ways more impressive). All software has bugs, indeed, including the software that your vehicle came with in the first place. If you mess with the charge curves on your batteries then you'll likely reap what you sow (I'd stay the hell away from there), but if it does overheat or explodes that will be just the same overheating or explosion that you could expect in a regular accident. Likely your EV has been designed around such failures, if it hasn't then you're in trouble even if you don't mod it. If the brakes stop working then you're in trouble (and so is everybody within striking distance), but brakes failing due to a software bug that you induced is a thing that I've yet to come across. Most brake systems have mechanical back-up, and if all that fails you can still reach for the 'oh-shit' lever, aka the emergency brake. Anybody that has ever had a master cylinder fail on them knows what I mean. Insurance companies deal in statistics. If you register your vehicle by brand and type then they'll quote you a value. If you plan on doing experiments with the drive train, if you increase the stock power by more than 20%, if you start messing with the structural components of the car (which I think is far scarier than any software mod) then there are procedures on how to deal with that. In some countries insurance companies will insure anything that moves, in others you need to go through a complex formalized procedure that tries to ascertain whether or not your car is fit for the road. As with everything you mess with: know what you are doing and err on the side of caution, especially when lives are involved. But don't let that stop you from learning skills and applying those skills to real world hardware. After all, if everybody would stick to theory we'd never have a lot of nice things.

klinquist 14y ago

I have software to do some pretty significant hacks to my BMW... and yes, I do it and enjoy it.