5 ms·

"but range will be software limited to 40 kWh" DRM in my car that will leave me stranded by the side of the road. Wow, this is a new low even for DRM. No than

"but range will be software limited to 40 kWh" DRM in my car that will leave me stranded by the side of the road. Wow, this is a new low even for DRM. No thank you. Tesla, you were kinda cool.

jlgreco 14y ago
Is this so much worse than disabling cores in CPUs and selling them as cheaper models? That practice seems to be nearly universally accepted.
- marshray 14y ago
  Yes. CPU cores are basically software, whereas battery weight is generally proportional to its capacity and would seem to have a big effect on the efficiency of an electric vehicle.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    I wonder how many of the actual customers are as disturbed by this as you.
    - marshray 14y ago
      I wonder too. What I would expect is that 4% of their customers will be reminded that their car is artificially limited whenever they need to travel more than 160 miles (260 km) and have to pull over early to recharge a battery that is actually capable of 230 miles (370 km).
      - prawn 14y ago
        Isn't that shorter range what they pre-ordered/paid for?
        ProblemFactory 14y ago
        It is. While the pricing model makes sense from a rational perspective, it just doesn't fit well with most people's emotions about fairness. When you get to the end of the charge on your 40kwh model, you know that the car is capable of 50% more - but you are not allowed to because you haven't paid Tesla an extra $10k. It's similar to airline pricing. It makes rational sense to sell early seats at lower cost, and increase prices as the plane gets closer to selling out, effectively auctioning off seats. But people hate it. The guy sitting next to you is getting the exact same service as you, but might have paid 3x less.
        prawn 14y ago
        That's never bothered me when flying.
    - alan_cx 14y ago
      They should be. What is the point of supporting and paying a premium for green, if you are going to carry dead weight around in the car? Given that we are told that carrying a spare wheel around is significant, unused battery capacity must also be a problem. I also assume tesla went to some trouble to reduce the weight of the car too. With makes unused battery capacity even more nuts. If you are going green, you do not want un-utilised or dead weight. End of. There is literally no argument there. So "Actual customers", who presumably know something of the subject, should be interested and question this set up. Or is this the knee jerk we love Musk thread there no one is allowed to point out potential flaws or silliness, and if any one does say anything critical, then any old excuse will do? Must we really exaggerate with words like "disturbed"?
      - Already__Taken 14y ago
        It's not 'unused'. It's extra capacity to extend the functioning life of the 40kw operating window. It's exactly like how solid state hard drives are labeled 256GB but are actually 240GB if you account for the space reserved for wear leveling. If anything Telsa is in fact more honest than the SSD market. The extra capacity would help spreading out the thermal loads with charging / discharging so it should also beable to charge in a shorter amount of time.
      - scragg 14y ago
        Model S is a nice car, comparable to a BMW 5 series. I think this is why people are buying it added with the fact it's an EV with one moving part. If green and unused weight was a customers primary concern then they would get a motorcycle or Nissan Leaf and not a sedan that can go do 0-60 in 4.4 seconds. My point is, I don't think they will be upset based on that reasoning. Maybe someone that already got a 60kwh might be upset and would have opted for the gimped range if it saved him $10k. As a 40kwh reserve holder, I am thrilled to be getting a 60kwh, I'm not concerned about the extra weight.
      - jeremyarussell 14y ago
        What should we be mad at him for? There are well listed and reasonable pros to maintaining the smaller price point and artificially limiting the battery capacity. The only half decent con anyone can list is dead weight. Which, and I haven't done the math myself but, the consensus seems to be that it's very much negligible (Anyone got some math to back me up by chance, I seem to have forgotten my capacity + weight = range formulas.) So yeah, I can't say I see what the giant fuss is about, and for the record, you may see everyone here as Musk "lovers" incapable of seeing his selfishness and wastefulness (i think?), while some would say you seem a Musk "hater" incapable of letting reason invade your opinion of the man. But you know, to each his own. Edit: Grammar
    - scragg 14y ago
      I'm a reservation holder for a 40kwh for about a couple months. I am pleased by this news obviously. I get the option to enable more range and the supercharger if I wanted. I didn't need either of these because I don't plan on taking long road trips with it (I have a 2nd vehicle for that). There might be some 60 owners upset by this but they knew what they were ordering and are getting it. Perhaps they wanted 60 speed but not range? People that ordered the 60,85 models are spending a lot of money and are likely Tesla enthusiasts. I don't think they are going to get angry over something that is beneficial to the company's bottom line. It's in every Tesla owners best interest for this company to be around for several years to come. I was predicting they would scrap the 40kwh battery and somehow not lose that low price point Tesla keeps advertsing. I based this on the fact they never shipped one, Europe doesn't even have that option for Model S orders and the Model X doesn't have a 40kwh option.
revelation 14y ago
If you are stranded, then because the battery ran out of juice, DRM or not, since obviously how they are going to implement this is by limiting the maximum charge percentage [1]. Even an on the spot upgrade can't put more juice into the pack. [1]: very easy to do in software and batteries last longer when they are not charged to full capacity. If they would charge over 40kWh, people would pay for electricity that they then couldn't use; that seems very unlikely.
- marshray 14y ago
  I don't think that's an obvious conclusion at all. Many rechargeable battery chemistries experience terrible failures if they are not fully charged or fully discharged on a regular basis. Even still, as a consumer I find it offensive when the same resources are consumed to produce something and then crippled just to sell at a lower price. It's a sign of market inefficiency. For pure software, it's different because the per-unit cost of production approaches zero. But batteries are literally massive objects, and their capacity-per-mass is the major factor of their value. So if your car still has to accelerate and decelerate all the mass of a 60KWh battery yet its capacity is artificially limited to 40KWh, your vehicle is not only range-limited, it's heavier and less efficient.
  - revelation 14y ago
    By default, the Tesla Model S will never fully charge the battery, no matter what the capacity. You can tell it do this by doing a "range charge", but Tesla warns that doing this regularly will negatively impact the longevity of the pack. Full charge also has other problem, e.g. regen doesn't work anymore since the battery is too full. If I'm to believe reports from 60kWh and 85kWh owners, the cars weigh essentially the same. It's not clear what they do with the smaller battery packs, but it doesn't seem to have much effect on weight. If you read the news release, the 60kWh pack actually has better acceleration than the (theorethical) 40kWh pack. I'm not sure I agree on market inefficiency, it's maybe inefficient, but it is a completely rational decision. Presumably, the cost to develop a 40kWh pack was higher than to just equip all 40kWh preorders with 60kWh packs.
simonster 14y ago
I don't think you can call any artificial technological limitation "digital rights management." "DRM" has generally referred to limitations that prevent you from transferring media from one device to another, preventing both illegal and legal uses of that media. The obvious alternative is to let people transfer the media freely. People hate DRM because it's an annoyance that doesn't prevent people from pirating things, but interferes with legitimate uses. In this case, however, there's no media involved. Furthermore, it seems pretty obvious that allowing anyone to modify the battery controller software willy-nilly would be a bad idea, unless you like watching cars explode. The complaint seems to be mostly that Tesla is disabling functionality the car has, but in software. However, the only obvious alternatives are to charge everyone more to be able to manufacture and stock a greater number of models, or to eliminate the 40-Wh battery option entirely. Out of these three options, it seems obvious that the one that Tesla chose is the best for the consumer.
- marshray 14y ago
  OK, we could just call it "crippleware".

"but range will be software limited to 40 kWh" DRM in my car that will leave me stranded by the side of the road. Wow, this is a new low even for DRM. No thank you. Tesla, you were kinda cool.

jlgreco 14y ago

Is this so much worse than disabling cores in CPUs and selling them as cheaper models? That practice seems to be nearly universally accepted.

marshray 14y ago
Yes. CPU cores are basically software, whereas battery weight is generally proportional to its capacity and would seem to have a big effect on the efficiency of an electric vehicle.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  I wonder how many of the actual customers are as disturbed by this as you.
  - marshray 14y ago
    I wonder too. What I would expect is that 4% of their customers will be reminded that their car is artificially limited whenever they need to travel more than 160 miles (260 km) and have to pull over early to recharge a battery that is actually capable of 230 miles (370 km).
    - prawn 14y ago
      Isn't that shorter range what they pre-ordered/paid for?
      - ProblemFactory 14y ago
        It is. While the pricing model makes sense from a rational perspective, it just doesn't fit well with most people's emotions about fairness. When you get to the end of the charge on your 40kwh model, you know that the car is capable of 50% more - but you are not allowed to because you haven't paid Tesla an extra $10k. It's similar to airline pricing. It makes rational sense to sell early seats at lower cost, and increase prices as the plane gets closer to selling out, effectively auctioning off seats. But people hate it. The guy sitting next to you is getting the exact same service as you, but might have paid 3x less.
        prawn 14y ago
        That's never bothered me when flying.
  - alan_cx 14y ago
    They should be. What is the point of supporting and paying a premium for green, if you are going to carry dead weight around in the car? Given that we are told that carrying a spare wheel around is significant, unused battery capacity must also be a problem. I also assume tesla went to some trouble to reduce the weight of the car too. With makes unused battery capacity even more nuts. If you are going green, you do not want un-utilised or dead weight. End of. There is literally no argument there. So "Actual customers", who presumably know something of the subject, should be interested and question this set up. Or is this the knee jerk we love Musk thread there no one is allowed to point out potential flaws or silliness, and if any one does say anything critical, then any old excuse will do? Must we really exaggerate with words like "disturbed"?
    - Already__Taken 14y ago
      It's not 'unused'. It's extra capacity to extend the functioning life of the 40kw operating window. It's exactly like how solid state hard drives are labeled 256GB but are actually 240GB if you account for the space reserved for wear leveling. If anything Telsa is in fact more honest than the SSD market. The extra capacity would help spreading out the thermal loads with charging / discharging so it should also beable to charge in a shorter amount of time.
    - scragg 14y ago
      Model S is a nice car, comparable to a BMW 5 series. I think this is why people are buying it added with the fact it's an EV with one moving part. If green and unused weight was a customers primary concern then they would get a motorcycle or Nissan Leaf and not a sedan that can go do 0-60 in 4.4 seconds. My point is, I don't think they will be upset based on that reasoning. Maybe someone that already got a 60kwh might be upset and would have opted for the gimped range if it saved him $10k. As a 40kwh reserve holder, I am thrilled to be getting a 60kwh, I'm not concerned about the extra weight.
    - jeremyarussell 14y ago
      What should we be mad at him for? There are well listed and reasonable pros to maintaining the smaller price point and artificially limiting the battery capacity. The only half decent con anyone can list is dead weight. Which, and I haven't done the math myself but, the consensus seems to be that it's very much negligible (Anyone got some math to back me up by chance, I seem to have forgotten my capacity + weight = range formulas.) So yeah, I can't say I see what the giant fuss is about, and for the record, you may see everyone here as Musk "lovers" incapable of seeing his selfishness and wastefulness (i think?), while some would say you seem a Musk "hater" incapable of letting reason invade your opinion of the man. But you know, to each his own. Edit: Grammar
  - scragg 14y ago
    I'm a reservation holder for a 40kwh for about a couple months. I am pleased by this news obviously. I get the option to enable more range and the supercharger if I wanted. I didn't need either of these because I don't plan on taking long road trips with it (I have a 2nd vehicle for that). There might be some 60 owners upset by this but they knew what they were ordering and are getting it. Perhaps they wanted 60 speed but not range? People that ordered the 60,85 models are spending a lot of money and are likely Tesla enthusiasts. I don't think they are going to get angry over something that is beneficial to the company's bottom line. It's in every Tesla owners best interest for this company to be around for several years to come. I was predicting they would scrap the 40kwh battery and somehow not lose that low price point Tesla keeps advertsing. I based this on the fact they never shipped one, Europe doesn't even have that option for Model S orders and the Model X doesn't have a 40kwh option.

revelation 14y ago

If you are stranded, then because the battery ran out of juice, DRM or not, since obviously how they are going to implement this is by limiting the maximum charge percentage [1]. Even an on the spot upgrade can't put more juice into the pack. [1]: very easy to do in software and batteries last longer when they are not charged to full capacity. If they would charge over 40kWh, people would pay for electricity that they then couldn't use; that seems very unlikely.

marshray 14y ago
I don't think that's an obvious conclusion at all. Many rechargeable battery chemistries experience terrible failures if they are not fully charged or fully discharged on a regular basis. Even still, as a consumer I find it offensive when the same resources are consumed to produce something and then crippled just to sell at a lower price. It's a sign of market inefficiency. For pure software, it's different because the per-unit cost of production approaches zero. But batteries are literally massive objects, and their capacity-per-mass is the major factor of their value. So if your car still has to accelerate and decelerate all the mass of a 60KWh battery yet its capacity is artificially limited to 40KWh, your vehicle is not only range-limited, it's heavier and less efficient.
- revelation 14y ago
  By default, the Tesla Model S will never fully charge the battery, no matter what the capacity. You can tell it do this by doing a "range charge", but Tesla warns that doing this regularly will negatively impact the longevity of the pack. Full charge also has other problem, e.g. regen doesn't work anymore since the battery is too full. If I'm to believe reports from 60kWh and 85kWh owners, the cars weigh essentially the same. It's not clear what they do with the smaller battery packs, but it doesn't seem to have much effect on weight. If you read the news release, the 60kWh pack actually has better acceleration than the (theorethical) 40kWh pack. I'm not sure I agree on market inefficiency, it's maybe inefficient, but it is a completely rational decision. Presumably, the cost to develop a 40kWh pack was higher than to just equip all 40kWh preorders with 60kWh packs.

simonster 14y ago

I don't think you can call any artificial technological limitation "digital rights management." "DRM" has generally referred to limitations that prevent you from transferring media from one device to another, preventing both illegal and legal uses of that media. The obvious alternative is to let people transfer the media freely. People hate DRM because it's an annoyance that doesn't prevent people from pirating things, but interferes with legitimate uses. In this case, however, there's no media involved. Furthermore, it seems pretty obvious that allowing anyone to modify the battery controller software willy-nilly would be a bad idea, unless you like watching cars explode. The complaint seems to be mostly that Tesla is disabling functionality the car has, but in software. However, the only obvious alternatives are to charge everyone more to be able to manufacture and stock a greater number of models, or to eliminate the 40-Wh battery option entirely. Out of these three options, it seems obvious that the one that Tesla chose is the best for the consumer.

marshray 14y ago
OK, we could just call it "crippleware".