4 ms·

Below, another commenter said that special education consumed 25% of the public budget. I don't know where he got that statistic, but if it is true then clearly

Below, another commenter said that special education consumed 25% of the public budget. I don't know where he got that statistic, but if it is true then clearly we can't consider it to be a "small portion" of anything. The Taliban is a religious organization that indoctrinates people similar to other religious organizations. What does it have to do with public schools? Are you suggesting that public schools are not secular enough and not objective enough? If so, I totally agree with you. But, it can be fixed. Religious schools are fundamentally broken as they have indoctrination of children at their core. You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims in the rest of your message. I don't even know how to respond to them. If you have a claim with some substance then maybe I can respond to it.

grandalf 18y ago
I'm not sure where the commentator got the figure that special ed is 25% of the budget. Numbers I've seen indicate that special ed students cost perhaps 3 times what regular ed students cost per year, but there are a lot fewer special ed kids in most districts. I am an atheist, fyi, but the reason I don't have a problem with parochial schools is this: Suppose an atheist like me has a kid and gets a voucher and must choose between a parochial school and a public school. I may rationally conclude that the hour spent each day on theological subjects is a worthwhile sacrifice to make in exchange for an overall superior academic environment. Yes, the hour is (in my opinion) time wasted, but in my mind it's equivalent to an hour wasted in, say, a poorly taught chemistry class. If anything, should my child be the sort of person likely to become an atheist, having to sit through a boring class about theology would likely only reinforce his atheism. I certainly don't think he'd come home from school one day and start trying to convert me.
jibiki 18y ago
I think the point you keep missing here is that all education is indoctrination. Even teaching kids to think rationally is indoctrination in the rational method. It's fine to say, "I think we should indoctrinate kids only in rationality," but most people will disagree with you. There is a sort of truce in our society: people don't hate each other for holding different viewpoints (as long as those viewpoints are societally acceptable, which varies from place to place.) Part of this truce is that people are allowed to shape the beliefs of their own children. You can't say "we should never indoctrinate kids." That would be the same as saying "we should never educate kids." You can say "we should only tell kids the truth," but then, whose truth do we tell? The problem is not so simple. It's dishonest to say "no indoctrination" when what you mean is "indoctrination should be more along my lines."
- briansmith 18y ago
  It is not true that "all education is indoctrination." If I teach you how to make a fire then have I somehow coerced you into a fire-based belief system? If I teach you how to add two numbers then have I introduced you to the religion of numbers? No, I've just given you some facts. If I teach you a process by which you can educate yourself then have I somehow brainwashed you? I don't see how. It is hard to keep indoctrination seperate from education. But, it isn't impossible.
  - jibiki 18y ago
    You're right, and I'm wrong, of course. The problem is that it's hard to know who gets to decide what a fact is. There are many people for whom creationism is a fact. Is it okay for them to teach it to their children? If not, why is it okay for you to teach your children about evolution? The fact that evolution is correct is sort of immaterial. There is no knowledge in the absence of cognition. For something to be known, it must be known by someone. We know that evolution is correct, but the creationist "knows" that creationism is correct.

grandalf 18y ago

I'm not sure where the commentator got the figure that special ed is 25% of the budget. Numbers I've seen indicate that special ed students cost perhaps 3 times what regular ed students cost per year, but there are a lot fewer special ed kids in most districts. I am an atheist, fyi, but the reason I don't have a problem with parochial schools is this: Suppose an atheist like me has a kid and gets a voucher and must choose between a parochial school and a public school. I may rationally conclude that the hour spent each day on theological subjects is a worthwhile sacrifice to make in exchange for an overall superior academic environment. Yes, the hour is (in my opinion) time wasted, but in my mind it's equivalent to an hour wasted in, say, a poorly taught chemistry class. If anything, should my child be the sort of person likely to become an atheist, having to sit through a boring class about theology would likely only reinforce his atheism. I certainly don't think he'd come home from school one day and start trying to convert me.

jibiki 18y ago

I think the point you keep missing here is that all education is indoctrination. Even teaching kids to think rationally is indoctrination in the rational method. It's fine to say, "I think we should indoctrinate kids only in rationality," but most people will disagree with you. There is a sort of truce in our society: people don't hate each other for holding different viewpoints (as long as those viewpoints are societally acceptable, which varies from place to place.) Part of this truce is that people are allowed to shape the beliefs of their own children. You can't say "we should never indoctrinate kids." That would be the same as saying "we should never educate kids." You can say "we should only tell kids the truth," but then, whose truth do we tell? The problem is not so simple. It's dishonest to say "no indoctrination" when what you mean is "indoctrination should be more along my lines."

briansmith 18y ago
It is not true that "all education is indoctrination." If I teach you how to make a fire then have I somehow coerced you into a fire-based belief system? If I teach you how to add two numbers then have I introduced you to the religion of numbers? No, I've just given you some facts. If I teach you a process by which you can educate yourself then have I somehow brainwashed you? I don't see how. It is hard to keep indoctrination seperate from education. But, it isn't impossible.
- jibiki 18y ago
  You're right, and I'm wrong, of course. The problem is that it's hard to know who gets to decide what a fact is. There are many people for whom creationism is a fact. Is it okay for them to teach it to their children? If not, why is it okay for you to teach your children about evolution? The fact that evolution is correct is sort of immaterial. There is no knowledge in the absence of cognition. For something to be known, it must be known by someone. We know that evolution is correct, but the creationist "knows" that creationism is correct.