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Only if you assume that the bright kids from "tough backgrounds and ethnic minorities" are less likely to succeed than dimmer non-minority rich kids. Which cou

Only if you assume that the bright kids from "tough backgrounds and ethnic minorities" are less likely to succeed than dimmer non-minority rich kids. Which could be the case, but might not be. Because if it's not, and those bright kids end up being successes, it could very well be in the long-term interest of a profit-making institution to make sure those kids are alumni. Not just for any possible donations, but for maintaining your prestige.

viscanti 14y ago
There's an interesting phenomenon that happens in the US. Upward social mobility almost never happens, but in the rare instance when it does, those examples are given as proof of the "American Dream". The book Ain't No Makin' It (http://www.amazon.com/Aint-Makin-Aspirations-Attainment-Neighborhood/dp/0813343585 http://www.amazon.com/Aint-Makin-Aspirations-Attainment-Neig...) does a good job of explaining the sociological issues. It's a fair assumption to say that bright kids from "tough backgrounds" are less likely to succeed. That's not on an individual level, but on a national level it's certainly true. For most, these are kids who saw their parents work hard and get nowhere. That's a special kind of demotivation that's difficult to shake by the time college rolls around. It's also why there's almost no upward social mobility in the US.
- mikecane 14y ago
  I haven't read that book. I recommend: Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams http://www.amazon.com/Limbo-Blue-Collar-Roots-White-Collar-Dreams/dp/0471714399 http://www.amazon.com/Limbo-Blue-Collar-Roots-White-Collar-D... EDIT to add: $25.52 for a Kindle book (Ain't No Makin' It)?! So the people who would be interested in perhaps reading it are screened out from affording it. Insanity.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  It's also why there's almost no upward social mobility in the US. What's your basis for claiming that? It doesn't jibe with available data. See: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-viewpoint/011110-517702-how-media-misuse-income-data-to-match-their-preconceptions.htm http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-viewpoint/011110-51... or http://www.creators.com/opinion/thomas-sowell/dangerous-demagoguery-part-ii.html http://www.creators.com/opinion/thomas-sowell/dangerous-dema... or http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents... Quote: The key findings of this study include: There was considerable income mobility of individuals in the U.S. economy during the 1996 through 2005 period as over half of taxpayers moved to a different income quintile over this period. Roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005. Among those with the very highest incomes in 1996 – the top 1/100 of 1 percent – only 25 percent remained in this group in 2005. Moreover, the median real income of these taxpayers declined over this period. The degree of mobility among income groups is unchanged from the prior decade (1987 through 1996). Economic growth resulted in rising incomes for most taxpayers over the period from 1996 to 2005. Median incomes of all taxpayers increased by 24 percent after adjusting for inflation. The real incomes of two-thirds of all taxpayers increased over this period. In addition, the median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those initially in the higher income groups.
  - viscanti 14y ago
    In almost all discussions of social mobility, the measure is intergenerational mobility (do you end up in the same socioeconomic class as your parents), not if you made more later in your career than when you started. Almost everyone makes more later in their career than when they started, that's not a sign of upward social mobility (at least not on an intergenerational level). For some reason, you cherry picked the one study that looked at all incomes in one of the most prosperous periods in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States#Intergenerational_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the... does a good job of summarizing a number of studies that show that the US ranks as one of the least socially mobile countries in the world. No one is arguing that people make the same amount their entire career. That's not what social mobility is. The fact is, the US has one of the lowest levels of intergenerational social mobility, and that exceptions to the rule are held up as evidence of The American Dream in action. It's not impossible to end up better off than your parents (in relative inflation adjusted terms), but that's the exception, and it's usually due much more to luck than hard work. Millions of americans work hard and end up exactly where their parents were.
    - mindcrime 14y ago
      All I'm saying is that a claim that "there is almost no social mobility in the US" is not backed up by the data. I'm not saying "everything is fine" or that we shouldn't do things to improve the situation.
      - viscanti 14y ago
        You're saying that because most people make more money later in their career that the US doesn't have an issue with upward social mobility. That comes from a fundamentally flawed notion you have of what everyone else means when they say social mobility. The fact is, most people end up in the same socioeconomic class as their parents. There are exceptions to the rule, but upward social mobility happens so infrequently in the US, that it's perfectly reasonable to model that as almost never happening. It's not impossible, it just almost never happens. The bigger problem is that the few counterexamples are used as anecdotal evidence to say "if everyone else would have just tried as hard, they'd be better off too". That's simply not true.
notahacker 14y ago
To a point, yes, but there's no desperate shortage of smart amongst their existing intake, and especially once you've taken into account the career boost these institutions offer, I'm sure their alumni will do just fine even if they don't include the latent geniuses in village schools a couple of thousand miles away (many boringly white and not poor enough to make an interesting rags-to-riches story anyway). If you want prestige, it's a lot easier just to mop up the sports superstars, famous families and academic prizewinners anyway.

viscanti 14y ago

There's an interesting phenomenon that happens in the US. Upward social mobility almost never happens, but in the rare instance when it does, those examples are given as proof of the "American Dream". The book Ain't No Makin' It (http://www.amazon.com/Aint-Makin-Aspirations-Attainment-Neighborhood/dp/0813343585 http://www.amazon.com/Aint-Makin-Aspirations-Attainment-Neig...) does a good job of explaining the sociological issues. It's a fair assumption to say that bright kids from "tough backgrounds" are less likely to succeed. That's not on an individual level, but on a national level it's certainly true. For most, these are kids who saw their parents work hard and get nowhere. That's a special kind of demotivation that's difficult to shake by the time college rolls around. It's also why there's almost no upward social mobility in the US.

mikecane 14y ago
I haven't read that book. I recommend: Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams http://www.amazon.com/Limbo-Blue-Collar-Roots-White-Collar-Dreams/dp/0471714399 http://www.amazon.com/Limbo-Blue-Collar-Roots-White-Collar-D... EDIT to add: $25.52 for a Kindle book (Ain't No Makin' It)?! So the people who would be interested in perhaps reading it are screened out from affording it. Insanity.
mindcrime 14y ago
It's also why there's almost no upward social mobility in the US. What's your basis for claiming that? It doesn't jibe with available data. See: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-viewpoint/011110-517702-how-media-misuse-income-data-to-match-their-preconceptions.htm http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials-viewpoint/011110-51... or http://www.creators.com/opinion/thomas-sowell/dangerous-demagoguery-part-ii.html http://www.creators.com/opinion/thomas-sowell/dangerous-dema... or http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents... Quote: The key findings of this study include: There was considerable income mobility of individuals in the U.S. economy during the 1996 through 2005 period as over half of taxpayers moved to a different income quintile over this period. Roughly half of taxpayers who began in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved up to a higher income group by 2005. Among those with the very highest incomes in 1996 – the top 1/100 of 1 percent – only 25 percent remained in this group in 2005. Moreover, the median real income of these taxpayers declined over this period. The degree of mobility among income groups is unchanged from the prior decade (1987 through 1996). Economic growth resulted in rising incomes for most taxpayers over the period from 1996 to 2005. Median incomes of all taxpayers increased by 24 percent after adjusting for inflation. The real incomes of two-thirds of all taxpayers increased over this period. In addition, the median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those initially in the higher income groups.
- viscanti 14y ago
  In almost all discussions of social mobility, the measure is intergenerational mobility (do you end up in the same socioeconomic class as your parents), not if you made more later in your career than when you started. Almost everyone makes more later in their career than when they started, that's not a sign of upward social mobility (at least not on an intergenerational level). For some reason, you cherry picked the one study that looked at all incomes in one of the most prosperous periods in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the_United_States#Intergenerational_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socio-economic_mobility_in_the... does a good job of summarizing a number of studies that show that the US ranks as one of the least socially mobile countries in the world. No one is arguing that people make the same amount their entire career. That's not what social mobility is. The fact is, the US has one of the lowest levels of intergenerational social mobility, and that exceptions to the rule are held up as evidence of The American Dream in action. It's not impossible to end up better off than your parents (in relative inflation adjusted terms), but that's the exception, and it's usually due much more to luck than hard work. Millions of americans work hard and end up exactly where their parents were.
  - mindcrime 14y ago
    All I'm saying is that a claim that "there is almost no social mobility in the US" is not backed up by the data. I'm not saying "everything is fine" or that we shouldn't do things to improve the situation.
    - viscanti 14y ago
      You're saying that because most people make more money later in their career that the US doesn't have an issue with upward social mobility. That comes from a fundamentally flawed notion you have of what everyone else means when they say social mobility. The fact is, most people end up in the same socioeconomic class as their parents. There are exceptions to the rule, but upward social mobility happens so infrequently in the US, that it's perfectly reasonable to model that as almost never happening. It's not impossible, it just almost never happens. The bigger problem is that the few counterexamples are used as anecdotal evidence to say "if everyone else would have just tried as hard, they'd be better off too". That's simply not true.

notahacker 14y ago

To a point, yes, but there's no desperate shortage of smart amongst their existing intake, and especially once you've taken into account the career boost these institutions offer, I'm sure their alumni will do just fine even if they don't include the latent geniuses in village schools a couple of thousand miles away (many boringly white and not poor enough to make an interesting rags-to-riches story anyway). If you want prestige, it's a lot easier just to mop up the sports superstars, famous families and academic prizewinners anyway.