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Calling someone you disagree with "fucking stupid" strongly suggests an argument based on empty emotion, not reasoning. "Privilege" is a false concept in any p

by javert 14y ago

Calling someone you disagree with "fucking stupid" strongly suggests an argument based on empty emotion, not reasoning. "Privilege" is a false concept in any political discussion. Privileges are granted by the owner of the privilege. But the government does not own my life, nor any aspect thereof, nor any aspect of anybody else's life, including their property. We are not owned by the government. To hold otherwise is fundamentally anti-freedom and pro-authoritarian. So to reduce that to this particular case: The government does not own airlines, airplanes, airspace, or myself. And even though it does own airports, _we_ (the people) paid for that. So, flying is not a privilege.

anigbrowl 14y ago
Privilege is not a false concept just because you don't like it. Whether or not you agree with the policy, you can't just ignore the existence of Supreme Court jurisprudence because the SC is the arbiter of these questions per the Constitution itself. And as for reason, I directed you to the concept of severability. Your claim that a constitutional violation invalidates the entire existence of government is just not anchored in reality. Lots of laws have been overturned as unconstitional, as have many actions by individual law enforcement officers or officers of the government over the ~230 year history of the United States. Has any of the Supreme Court decisions ever resulted in a dissolution of the government? No. Why? Because an infringement of the a constitutional right does not delegitimize the existence of the government. The point of a constitutional republic is to be self-perpetuating and self-correcting, not to fall apart like a game of Jenga when you pull on the right piece. Please, read the whole constitution. It's not very long, you can do it in an hour or so. There's a lot more to it than just the bill of rights.I stand by my original argument that your approach to this is an example of magical thinking, and is actually getting in the way of the change you seek.
- javert 14y ago
  > Privilege is not a false concept just because you don't like it. I didn't say it was a false concept _in general_. For a kid to get an allowance is a privilege. What I should implied (and should have have said explicitly) is: the relationship between people and their government should not be governed by a notion of privilege. > Whether or not you agree with the policy, you can't just ignore the existence of Supreme Court jurisprudence because the SC is the arbiter of these questions per the Constitution itself. No, morality is the arbiter of these questions, and the government either acts in line with morality, or it does not. In this particular case, the Constitution has taken the right moral stand, and the rest of the government has ignored the Constitution. > Your claim that a constitutional violation invalidates the entire existence of government is just not anchored in reality. I don't know why you keep talking about this. I explicitly stated that I don't support rebellion. I think we should try to work within the legal framework we have to change things. So we have no practical disagreement. I just think that a government that does not follow the rules of the Constitution is not a _legal_ US government, because it's acting _illegally_, in the same way that China taking over the US by force would not be legal under the US constitution, and would also therefore be illegitimate. This is not the same thing as severability. Severability comes into play when part of a law is deemed illegal. In this case, the law (constitution) is illegal, and one of the parties to the law is breaking it. > Please, read the whole constitution Your presumption that I haven't read it is ridiculous.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    No, morality is the arbiter of these questions, and the government either acts in line with morality, or it does not. In this particular case, the Constitution has taken the right moral stand, and the rest of the government has ignored the Constitution. That's literally nonsense. Morality is an abstraction of what constitutes proper behavior. An arbiter is a particular body that judges disputes. In the United States, that judicial power is vested in the Supreme Court, per article III of the Constitution. Your concept of the Constitution as a moral agent, ignored by the rest of the government (including the Supreme Court) is just irrational. I just think that a government that does not follow the rules of the Constitution is not a _legal_ US government, because it's acting _illegally_ Would you say that a person who breaks the law is not a legal person, or that a citizen who breaks the law ceases to be citizen? Nobody subscribes to this concept of legitimacy; the Constitution explicitly contemplates the possibility of disputes between the United States and other parties, and the possibility of being a party to a dispute necessarily involves the possibility that the United States will lose such a dispute by being out of step with the Constitution. That doesn't make the entire government illegitimate. Your presumption that I haven't read it is ridiculous. If you have read it you have certainly not understood it. Your arguments border upon the delusional. I'm not saying that to insult you. I'm saying that because you're making these bizarre claims out of the air, whereas I'm citing to the Constitution's own text. Unlike the concept of privilege, there's no mention of 'morality' anywhere in the constitution, and you're using the term in a way that is not consistent with normal English usage.
    - javert 14y ago
      > That's literally nonsense. Morality is an abstraction of what constitutes proper behavior. An arbiter is a particular body that judges disputes. In the United States, that judicial power is vested in the Supreme Court, per article III of the Constitution. Your concept of the Constitution as a moral agent, ignored by the rest of the government (including the Supreme Court) is just irrational. In this paragraph, you called my position "nonsense" and "irrational," yet you gave no reason for those claims whatsoever. I agree with the other stuff you said, modulo I'm not sure how you define "moral agent." The point is, morality DOES exist, irrespective of what any person or government does or says. This is the normal English use of "morality." Government action can either be in line with that, or contradict it. I'm not saying that the Constitution is the source or morality or an arbiter of morality. It's just that the 4th amendment _is_ in accordance with morality, along with the rest of the Constitution, broadly speaking. > That doesn't make the entire government illegitimate. So, what's the line? Clearly if the government didn't respect articles I, II, and III of the constitution whatsoever, and just appointed a dictator, it would not be legitimate. On the other hand, if it makes a minor (but illegal) clerical error, it is clearly still legitimate. _My_ answer to this is that there is no set threshold; it's just a strategic question, a matter of rhetoric. So I don't think there is anything weighing on this topic. What do you think the threshold is? > If you have read it you have certainly not understood it. Your arguments border upon the delusional. That's just ridiculous. You keep saying this, but you haven't made a convincing argument that I'm wrong about anything, much less _delusional_, which is an entirely different beast altogether. I'm not sure if you understand that there is a potential difference between what is right and wrong, and what is actually written into law.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

by javert 14y ago

anigbrowl 14y ago

Privilege is not a false concept just because you don't like it. Whether or not you agree with the policy, you can't just ignore the existence of Supreme Court jurisprudence because the SC is the arbiter of these questions per the Constitution itself. And as for reason, I directed you to the concept of severability. Your claim that a constitutional violation invalidates the entire existence of government is just not anchored in reality. Lots of laws have been overturned as unconstitional, as have many actions by individual law enforcement officers or officers of the government over the ~230 year history of the United States. Has any of the Supreme Court decisions ever resulted in a dissolution of the government? No. Why? Because an infringement of the a constitutional right does not delegitimize the existence of the government. The point of a constitutional republic is to be self-perpetuating and self-correcting, not to fall apart like a game of Jenga when you pull on the right piece. Please, read the whole constitution. It's not very long, you can do it in an hour or so. There's a lot more to it than just the bill of rights.I stand by my original argument that your approach to this is an example of magical thinking, and is actually getting in the way of the change you seek.

javert 14y ago
> Privilege is not a false concept just because you don't like it. I didn't say it was a false concept _in general_. For a kid to get an allowance is a privilege. What I should implied (and should have have said explicitly) is: the relationship between people and their government should not be governed by a notion of privilege. > Whether or not you agree with the policy, you can't just ignore the existence of Supreme Court jurisprudence because the SC is the arbiter of these questions per the Constitution itself. No, morality is the arbiter of these questions, and the government either acts in line with morality, or it does not. In this particular case, the Constitution has taken the right moral stand, and the rest of the government has ignored the Constitution. > Your claim that a constitutional violation invalidates the entire existence of government is just not anchored in reality. I don't know why you keep talking about this. I explicitly stated that I don't support rebellion. I think we should try to work within the legal framework we have to change things. So we have no practical disagreement. I just think that a government that does not follow the rules of the Constitution is not a _legal_ US government, because it's acting _illegally_, in the same way that China taking over the US by force would not be legal under the US constitution, and would also therefore be illegitimate. This is not the same thing as severability. Severability comes into play when part of a law is deemed illegal. In this case, the law (constitution) is illegal, and one of the parties to the law is breaking it. > Please, read the whole constitution Your presumption that I haven't read it is ridiculous.
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  No, morality is the arbiter of these questions, and the government either acts in line with morality, or it does not. In this particular case, the Constitution has taken the right moral stand, and the rest of the government has ignored the Constitution. That's literally nonsense. Morality is an abstraction of what constitutes proper behavior. An arbiter is a particular body that judges disputes. In the United States, that judicial power is vested in the Supreme Court, per article III of the Constitution. Your concept of the Constitution as a moral agent, ignored by the rest of the government (including the Supreme Court) is just irrational. I just think that a government that does not follow the rules of the Constitution is not a _legal_ US government, because it's acting _illegally_ Would you say that a person who breaks the law is not a legal person, or that a citizen who breaks the law ceases to be citizen? Nobody subscribes to this concept of legitimacy; the Constitution explicitly contemplates the possibility of disputes between the United States and other parties, and the possibility of being a party to a dispute necessarily involves the possibility that the United States will lose such a dispute by being out of step with the Constitution. That doesn't make the entire government illegitimate. Your presumption that I haven't read it is ridiculous. If you have read it you have certainly not understood it. Your arguments border upon the delusional. I'm not saying that to insult you. I'm saying that because you're making these bizarre claims out of the air, whereas I'm citing to the Constitution's own text. Unlike the concept of privilege, there's no mention of 'morality' anywhere in the constitution, and you're using the term in a way that is not consistent with normal English usage.
  - javert 14y ago
    > That's literally nonsense. Morality is an abstraction of what constitutes proper behavior. An arbiter is a particular body that judges disputes. In the United States, that judicial power is vested in the Supreme Court, per article III of the Constitution. Your concept of the Constitution as a moral agent, ignored by the rest of the government (including the Supreme Court) is just irrational. In this paragraph, you called my position "nonsense" and "irrational," yet you gave no reason for those claims whatsoever. I agree with the other stuff you said, modulo I'm not sure how you define "moral agent." The point is, morality DOES exist, irrespective of what any person or government does or says. This is the normal English use of "morality." Government action can either be in line with that, or contradict it. I'm not saying that the Constitution is the source or morality or an arbiter of morality. It's just that the 4th amendment _is_ in accordance with morality, along with the rest of the Constitution, broadly speaking. > That doesn't make the entire government illegitimate. So, what's the line? Clearly if the government didn't respect articles I, II, and III of the constitution whatsoever, and just appointed a dictator, it would not be legitimate. On the other hand, if it makes a minor (but illegal) clerical error, it is clearly still legitimate. _My_ answer to this is that there is no set threshold; it's just a strategic question, a matter of rhetoric. So I don't think there is anything weighing on this topic. What do you think the threshold is? > If you have read it you have certainly not understood it. Your arguments border upon the delusional. That's just ridiculous. You keep saying this, but you haven't made a convincing argument that I'm wrong about anything, much less _delusional_, which is an entirely different beast altogether. I'm not sure if you understand that there is a potential difference between what is right and wrong, and what is actually written into law.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]