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We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. T

We complain about the TSA on here all the time, but it's important to remember that the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does. They genuinely and wholeheartedly believe that the TSA is helping to make the skies safer for Americans, and that it is doing so without violating any civil liberties. The idea that "if you have nothing to hide, why do you care if the authorities search you?" is a widely held belief. If we are to dismantle the TSA from its core (rather than just poke holes in it every now and then for specific grievances), public education is the first step, not litigation.

clebio 14y ago
Do you have some evidence for this assertion? I see it commonly given here -- treated almost axiomatically -- but is there any actual evidence that 'the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong'? Or are we just assuming we know the mind of 'average' American... and that we are not they... and that they are simple, and complacent? Public education would lead to... what... mass civil disobedience against the TSA's practices? Maybe, I don't know. Fighting the TSA's de facto policies with legal battles is an appropriate response (that doesn't at all require majority public attention).
- rck 14y ago
  I think this poll is representative of many that have touched on the issue: http://www.gallup.com/poll/156491/americans-views-tsa-positive-negative.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/156491/americans-views-tsa-positi...
  - clebio 14y ago
    Thanks, that's a fair reference. Still, they weren't measuring whether most people see _absolutely nothing wrong_. That's a fair piece further. Boycotting, protesting, or requesting disclosures under FOIA take a lot of effort and risk. The threshold of quiet discomfort before action is pretty high on this one.
- peteforde 14y ago
  Even armed with statistics or a report from a "legitmate" (paid) research firm, in the end you can always find something credible looking to back up what you say or believe. Often being confronted with proof to the contrary makes a believer even more convinced of their belief. The real problem here is the difference between what people think, what people say and what people do. Everyone hates the screening process, and even the most law-and-order "nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" Ward Cleaver type is going to see patronizing, questionable and occasionally abusive behaviour. It can be scary to confront the idea that the government might not have your best interests at heart, and scared people are not likely to speak up unless something is happening to them. People are herded like animals through the screening process. The entire scenario is designed to scare people into complacency and obedience. Herds are not known for thinking rationally. In the end, there's no obvious way to get enough people in a herd to speak up. That means that people who do get frustrated and push back look like trouble makers, they are made to look like the suspicious ones. Anyone who might want to help is fighting against the fear that they too will be singled out. It's a vicious circle experienced by anyone that flies frequently. Asking for "evidence" that people aren't upset is missing the point.
  - clebio 14y ago
    You're absolutely right about herd mentality and the overall process that isolates trouble-makers. But I wasn't asking for proof that people aren't upset. I'm questioning the idea that a majority of fliers see _nothing_ wrong with this process.
- bgrainger 14y ago
  I found it interesting to read the comments on the blog post where the TSA announced they would stop confiscating pocketknives (effective April 25): http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support-than.html http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support... Instead of celebrating this as a victory for common sense, many commenters argued against the change, claiming it would make flights less safe (or at least feel less safe). I think these people are representative of a significant fraction of the population who think the TSA's work is both necessary and effective, and would oppose limiting it any further.
  - snprbob86 14y ago
    My girlfriend is a flight attendant. She, and many of her co-workers, are very upset about the new pocketknife policies. Mainly, the issue is this: She's still not allowed to carry one. Company policy: She could lose her job upon uniform inspection. Total craziness if you ask me. Honestly, I wouldn't care if they sold knives for $2 like headphones. I just wish that they would provide her with some training in martial arts with a focus on weapon disarming.
bdunbar 14y ago
Two pronged approach is in order. Litigation _and_ education. Won't do any good - the TSA is here to stay, short of the government ceasing to be. But it's a good fight, and might delay the inevitable for a while.
coldcode 14y ago
I've never met anyone who thought the TSA was anything other than irritating and pointless.
revelation 14y ago
This "appeal to the average" is getting old. I wager you would be surprised what the "average american" takes an interest in.
rdtsc 14y ago
Americans (and I am painting with a very wide brush here) I find are very authoritarian. For all the propaganda about freedom, independence, personal rights and property, they are very willing to support authority, very obedient, and most of all would not lift a finger to protect or step up if they see authority overstepping its bounds. As a bit of a background, I grew in a former communist dictatorship so I am familiar a bit with oppression, keeping your mouth shut, not saying the wrong thing and listening to authority. That is why I have a smell test and a perspective to compare between. Anyone think I am off the mark completely? Obviously in this forum most people aren't but am I completely off the mark in respect to the average Joe Sixpack? What is the reason for that? Kids do learn in schools about fighting for independence from England, about Founding Fathers, etc etc. so where does blind submission to authority come from?
- _delirium 14y ago
  I think it's vaguely true in an absolute sense, but I haven't lived anywhere else where people are less submissive to authority, except in countries which have obviously corrupt governments. It seems like a general feature of first-world countries. I live in Denmark now, and if anything people defer to the authorities here even more than in the US. I have some friends in Greece who don't trust the authorities, but it had to get to a pretty bad state there for that to happen (e.g., infiltration of the police by far-right organizations).
  - jennyjenjen 14y ago
    I can understand that in some Nordic countries where there is a little more civic involvement and participation in government all around. They have a multi-party system and the population trusts the government a lot more - not because they are sheep, but because the government is highly transparent and cooperation between parties is encouraged. People feel well-represented there and in Sweden, from my observations.
- aethertap 14y ago
  I think it's deeply ingrained in our culture, and especially so in parenting and schooling. The model of schooling we have is based primarily on conditioning people from an early age to accept answers, wisdom, and decisions from an authority figure (externalizing the responsibility for thinking). It is pervasive in the typical classroom, where very strong emphasis is placed on having "the right answer" as opposed to having an effective thinking process. Little attempt is made to engage the students in dialogue, and they are expected to memorize and repeat whatever the teacher delivers. As a result, they do not develop a habit or ability in critical thinking, and do not question things that might need to be questioned. In my opinion, that is one of the greatest causes of the phenomenon of submissiveness in developed nations (this model of schooling is pretty much universal I believe). There have been some very interesting developments counter to this in recent years, and I hope that they gain some traction. There's a program in the UK called Cognitive Acceleration [1] that seems to have a lot of promise for developing more of a habit of independent thinking. There's also some interesting stuff coming out of Harvard called Visible Thinking [2] that I believe is very beneficial. Unfortunately, I think it will be quite a while before that kind of thing is widely adopted because of sheer momentum and the apparent drive toward ever more standardized testing. I'm sure there are dozens of other factors that contribute to what you're talking about, but schooling is one that I recognized as having a huge impact on my own life in terms of my perception of my position relative to authority. [1] http://www.teachingexpertise.com/articles/cognitive-acceleration-2243 http://www.teachingexpertise.com/articles/cognitive-accelera... [2] http://www.old-pz.gse.harvard.edu/vt/VisibleThinking_html_files/VisibleThinking1.html http://www.old-pz.gse.harvard.edu/vt/VisibleThinking_html_fi...
mikeash 14y ago
Complaining about the awful stuff they do is part of that public education mission.
Shivetya 14y ago
Oh I am quite sure the average American DOES see something wrong with the TSA, however they are resigned to grousing about it as individually they cannot see anything they can do but accept it. It would take a new political group to arise and challenge those in power, which isn't going to happen anytime soon. The Tea Party got branded by its kooks because both Republicans and Democrats saw the threat is posed to them. Republicans because it directly challenged them and Democrats who desperately didn't want the same to come up and challenge them from within. So I think Americans care, but are resigned to the fact that short of a major upheaval or serious blunder by the TSA not much will change.
Turing_Machine 14y ago
"the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does" I keep seeing variants of this claim, but that's not my experience. Everyone I know hates it (and I'm pretty sure that some of those people are "average Americans").
tptacek 14y ago
Yes! I commented a few weeks ago about listening to an NPR ToTN segment about the loosening of the pocketknife ban. ToTN even got a guest for the duration of the segment to argue the case for relaxing TSA regulations. As I recall: every caller called to complain that the TSA was relaxing requirements.
- bgrainger 14y ago
  Similarly, many commenters on the TSA's blog post announcing this change opposed it: http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support-than.html http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support...

clebio 14y ago

Do you have some evidence for this assertion? I see it commonly given here -- treated almost axiomatically -- but is there any actual evidence that 'the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong'? Or are we just assuming we know the mind of 'average' American... and that we are not they... and that they are simple, and complacent? Public education would lead to... what... mass civil disobedience against the TSA's practices? Maybe, I don't know. Fighting the TSA's de facto policies with legal battles is an appropriate response (that doesn't at all require majority public attention).

rck 14y ago
I think this poll is representative of many that have touched on the issue: http://www.gallup.com/poll/156491/americans-views-tsa-positive-negative.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/156491/americans-views-tsa-positi...
- clebio 14y ago
  Thanks, that's a fair reference. Still, they weren't measuring whether most people see _absolutely nothing wrong_. That's a fair piece further. Boycotting, protesting, or requesting disclosures under FOIA take a lot of effort and risk. The threshold of quiet discomfort before action is pretty high on this one.
peteforde 14y ago
Even armed with statistics or a report from a "legitmate" (paid) research firm, in the end you can always find something credible looking to back up what you say or believe. Often being confronted with proof to the contrary makes a believer even more convinced of their belief. The real problem here is the difference between what people think, what people say and what people do. Everyone hates the screening process, and even the most law-and-order "nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" Ward Cleaver type is going to see patronizing, questionable and occasionally abusive behaviour. It can be scary to confront the idea that the government might not have your best interests at heart, and scared people are not likely to speak up unless something is happening to them. People are herded like animals through the screening process. The entire scenario is designed to scare people into complacency and obedience. Herds are not known for thinking rationally. In the end, there's no obvious way to get enough people in a herd to speak up. That means that people who do get frustrated and push back look like trouble makers, they are made to look like the suspicious ones. Anyone who might want to help is fighting against the fear that they too will be singled out. It's a vicious circle experienced by anyone that flies frequently. Asking for "evidence" that people aren't upset is missing the point.
- clebio 14y ago
  You're absolutely right about herd mentality and the overall process that isolates trouble-makers. But I wasn't asking for proof that people aren't upset. I'm questioning the idea that a majority of fliers see _nothing_ wrong with this process.
bgrainger 14y ago
I found it interesting to read the comments on the blog post where the TSA announced they would stop confiscating pocketknives (effective April 25): http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support-than.html http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support... Instead of celebrating this as a victory for common sense, many commenters argued against the change, claiming it would make flights less safe (or at least feel less safe). I think these people are representative of a significant fraction of the population who think the TSA's work is both necessary and effective, and would oppose limiting it any further.
- snprbob86 14y ago
  My girlfriend is a flight attendant. She, and many of her co-workers, are very upset about the new pocketknife policies. Mainly, the issue is this: She's still not allowed to carry one. Company policy: She could lose her job upon uniform inspection. Total craziness if you ask me. Honestly, I wouldn't care if they sold knives for $2 like headphones. I just wish that they would provide her with some training in martial arts with a focus on weapon disarming.

bdunbar 14y ago

Two pronged approach is in order. Litigation _and_ education. Won't do any good - the TSA is here to stay, short of the government ceasing to be. But it's a good fight, and might delay the inevitable for a while.

coldcode 14y ago

I've never met anyone who thought the TSA was anything other than irritating and pointless.

revelation 14y ago

This "appeal to the average" is getting old. I wager you would be surprised what the "average american" takes an interest in.

rdtsc 14y ago

Americans (and I am painting with a very wide brush here) I find are very authoritarian. For all the propaganda about freedom, independence, personal rights and property, they are very willing to support authority, very obedient, and most of all would not lift a finger to protect or step up if they see authority overstepping its bounds. As a bit of a background, I grew in a former communist dictatorship so I am familiar a bit with oppression, keeping your mouth shut, not saying the wrong thing and listening to authority. That is why I have a smell test and a perspective to compare between. Anyone think I am off the mark completely? Obviously in this forum most people aren't but am I completely off the mark in respect to the average Joe Sixpack? What is the reason for that? Kids do learn in schools about fighting for independence from England, about Founding Fathers, etc etc. so where does blind submission to authority come from?

_delirium 14y ago
I think it's vaguely true in an absolute sense, but I haven't lived anywhere else where people are less submissive to authority, except in countries which have obviously corrupt governments. It seems like a general feature of first-world countries. I live in Denmark now, and if anything people defer to the authorities here even more than in the US. I have some friends in Greece who don't trust the authorities, but it had to get to a pretty bad state there for that to happen (e.g., infiltration of the police by far-right organizations).
- jennyjenjen 14y ago
  I can understand that in some Nordic countries where there is a little more civic involvement and participation in government all around. They have a multi-party system and the population trusts the government a lot more - not because they are sheep, but because the government is highly transparent and cooperation between parties is encouraged. People feel well-represented there and in Sweden, from my observations.
aethertap 14y ago
I think it's deeply ingrained in our culture, and especially so in parenting and schooling. The model of schooling we have is based primarily on conditioning people from an early age to accept answers, wisdom, and decisions from an authority figure (externalizing the responsibility for thinking). It is pervasive in the typical classroom, where very strong emphasis is placed on having "the right answer" as opposed to having an effective thinking process. Little attempt is made to engage the students in dialogue, and they are expected to memorize and repeat whatever the teacher delivers. As a result, they do not develop a habit or ability in critical thinking, and do not question things that might need to be questioned. In my opinion, that is one of the greatest causes of the phenomenon of submissiveness in developed nations (this model of schooling is pretty much universal I believe). There have been some very interesting developments counter to this in recent years, and I hope that they gain some traction. There's a program in the UK called Cognitive Acceleration [1] that seems to have a lot of promise for developing more of a habit of independent thinking. There's also some interesting stuff coming out of Harvard called Visible Thinking [2] that I believe is very beneficial. Unfortunately, I think it will be quite a while before that kind of thing is widely adopted because of sheer momentum and the apparent drive toward ever more standardized testing. I'm sure there are dozens of other factors that contribute to what you're talking about, but schooling is one that I recognized as having a huge impact on my own life in terms of my perception of my position relative to authority. [1] http://www.teachingexpertise.com/articles/cognitive-acceleration-2243 http://www.teachingexpertise.com/articles/cognitive-accelera... [2] http://www.old-pz.gse.harvard.edu/vt/VisibleThinking_html_files/VisibleThinking1.html http://www.old-pz.gse.harvard.edu/vt/VisibleThinking_html_fi...

mikeash 14y ago

Complaining about the awful stuff they do is part of that public education mission.

Shivetya 14y ago

Oh I am quite sure the average American DOES see something wrong with the TSA, however they are resigned to grousing about it as individually they cannot see anything they can do but accept it. It would take a new political group to arise and challenge those in power, which isn't going to happen anytime soon. The Tea Party got branded by its kooks because both Republicans and Democrats saw the threat is posed to them. Republicans because it directly challenged them and Democrats who desperately didn't want the same to come up and challenge them from within. So I think Americans care, but are resigned to the fact that short of a major upheaval or serious blunder by the TSA not much will change.

Turing_Machine 14y ago

"the average American sees absolutely nothing wrong with what the TSA does" I keep seeing variants of this claim, but that's not my experience. Everyone I know hates it (and I'm pretty sure that some of those people are "average Americans").

tptacek 14y ago

Yes! I commented a few weeks ago about listening to an NPR ToTN segment about the loosening of the pocketknife ban. ToTN even got a guest for the duration of the segment to argue the case for relaxing TSA regulations. As I recall: every caller called to complain that the TSA was relaxing requirements.

bgrainger 14y ago
Similarly, many commenters on the TSA's blog post announcing this change opposed it: http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support-than.html http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/03/small-pocket-knives-more-support...