5 ms·

My mother can't travel by plane, because she has aphasia (can't speak) and a leg brace, due to her stroke. If I go through the airport with her, there is no gu

by javert 14y ago

My mother can't travel by plane, because she has aphasia (can't speak) and a leg brace, due to her stroke. If I go through the airport with her, there is no guarantee the agents will let me stay with her and explain the situation. She can't remove the leg brace on her own for them to make sure it's not a weapon, and TSA agents can't do it properly. So, basically, taking her to the airport is a recipe for having her verbally abused (treated like a mentally handicapped or non-cooperative person), and then physically abused (TSA agents going under her clothes to determine that she's just wearing a leg brace). Maybe there's some special procedure for dealing with this, but it's easier to just not travel than risk it. The TSA is a direct, overt violation of the 4th amendment (search and seizure). Thus, the US federal government is not legitimate under the US Constitution. (No, I am not advocating rebellion, violent or otherwise.) If we simply let the airlines handle their own security, which is not a violation of the 4th amendment, none of this would be an issue. Moreover, it would make air travel and security screening a voluntary relationship between consenting parties (travellers and airlines), instead of a coercive relationship between two consenting parties and government agents.

bdunbar 14y ago
> If I go through the airport with her, there is no guarantee the agents will let me stay with her and explain the situation. I am - without being an expert - pretty sure there is a procedure for care givers. The last time I flew - 2010 - it was a few months after my wife had bi-lateral knee surgery. She was mobile, but not spry, not able to walk more than fifty yards at a go. We had an airport provided wheel chair, a guy or gal to push. My role was care-giver and I got to be with her throughout the procedure. 'Is this your care giver - step this way, Sir.'. Worked pretty well: the pusher person knew where to go, the TSA goons got us to the head of the line and it worked out. I don't know about the leg brace, though. That might be a problem. I'm with you on the TSA being bad news and a worse idea. The day it was announced I knew it would be a goat rope, a hit against the 4th amendment and would never, ever, go away. But I am old enough to remember when airports had observation decks for the public, anyone could march down to the gate with only a nod to the sleepy airport guy running the scanner, and if you'd told anyone what's going on in 2013 they'd snort and say 'Maybe in the USSR, it's run by commies. But never in the USA.'
- misnome 14y ago
  > I am - without being an expert - pretty sure there is a procedure for care givers. I think half of the problem is the plethora of examples where the TSA does not even follow their own procedures, making this moot.
colanderman 14y ago
Can she not carry a written note (perhaps signed by a doctor) to hand to the TSA agent explaining her situation?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- javert 14y ago
  That would be a start, but there's no _guarantee_ that they will abide by the note. Besides sometimes being coarse and unhelpful, there are _many_ documented incidences of abuse on the part of the TSA. I would not feel comfortable with the TSA even taking her out of my sight, because if anything abusive happened, she would not be able to communicate that, due to the aphasia. It's surprising that people can be so nasty, but while a lot of the TSA people are decent folks that think they're doing something patriotic, some of them are bottom-of-the-barrel scum who would not be employable anywhere else. And some of them get off on having unchecked power. There might actually be some kind of procedure to go with a person as a caretaker and be allowed to _stay_ with them, that I'm just unaware of.
anigbrowl 14y ago
The TSA is a direct, overt violation of the 4th amendment (search and seizure). Thus, the US federal government is not legitimate under the US Constitution. Don't be so fucking stupid. Apart from the obvious argument that flying is a privilege and not a right, and that you don't need to fly (however impractical this is), even if you were right on the 4th amendment argument it doesn't mean 'the US federal government is not legitimate.' That's just magical thinking. Please, do yourself a favor and read up on the concept of severability. I'm sorry to be so blunt but when you make absurd claims like that then you just chuck your entire argument into the toilet and pointlessly marginalize yourself. Now what would be worth exploring is a constitutional challenge to the TSA under the equal protection clause because of your mother's disability. But declaring the entire government illegitimate? Don't you think that with so many lawyers in the US and almost 12 years since the TSA was created, if your idea held any water that it would have been the subject of a major legal battle by now?
- trust-me 14y ago
  USSR existed for 69 years, no major battles were brought over institutions like KGB, that were breaking the democratic soviet constitution.
- DaemonXI 14y ago
  Take it easy with the tone. No need to be confrontational.
  - trust-me 14y ago
    Being confrontational is very often a great strategy, especially in front of a dumb crowd (luckily the Eternal September is yet to happen in full force here).
    - javert 14y ago
      But (a) I'm not dumb (I was the guy being confronted), and (b) that is not a great strategy on HN because you will be downvoted to oblivion, as happened in this case.
rhizome 14y ago
And Americans complain about nationalized industries in other countries.
- javert 14y ago
  Which is fine, as long as a given _individual_ is consistent. For example, I complain about non-retaliatory coercion wherever I see it, including nationalized industries in other countries, the TSA, and US government-granted monopolies to telecom companies. America is an _extremely_ diverse place, and generic online American-bashing just isn't appropriate (despite being quite popular), so please try to avoid it.
  - rhizome 14y ago
    I believe that there are governmental-media tendencies that create institutional criticisms rooted in hypocrisy. See also: stereotyping and bigotry, and as an example I would say the US's unified message that nationalizing oil in Venezuela was bad is an example of this kind of bigotry. I'm also a lifelong Californian, so follow your own advice regarding diversity when condescending that my criticism necessarily depends on regional ignorance or outsiderism.
zapdrive 14y ago
> No, I am not advocating rebellion, violent or otherwise. Freedom and rights have never been offered on a platter. You have to fight for them. And you have to keep fighting to maintain them.

by javert 14y ago

bdunbar 14y ago

> If I go through the airport with her, there is no guarantee the agents will let me stay with her and explain the situation. I am - without being an expert - pretty sure there is a procedure for care givers. The last time I flew - 2010 - it was a few months after my wife had bi-lateral knee surgery. She was mobile, but not spry, not able to walk more than fifty yards at a go. We had an airport provided wheel chair, a guy or gal to push. My role was care-giver and I got to be with her throughout the procedure. 'Is this your care giver - step this way, Sir.'. Worked pretty well: the pusher person knew where to go, the TSA goons got us to the head of the line and it worked out. I don't know about the leg brace, though. That might be a problem. I'm with you on the TSA being bad news and a worse idea. The day it was announced I knew it would be a goat rope, a hit against the 4th amendment and would never, ever, go away. But I am old enough to remember when airports had observation decks for the public, anyone could march down to the gate with only a nod to the sleepy airport guy running the scanner, and if you'd told anyone what's going on in 2013 they'd snort and say 'Maybe in the USSR, it's run by commies. But never in the USA.'

misnome 14y ago
> I am - without being an expert - pretty sure there is a procedure for care givers. I think half of the problem is the plethora of examples where the TSA does not even follow their own procedures, making this moot.

colanderman 14y ago

Can she not carry a written note (perhaps signed by a doctor) to hand to the TSA agent explaining her situation?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
javert 14y ago
That would be a start, but there's no _guarantee_ that they will abide by the note. Besides sometimes being coarse and unhelpful, there are _many_ documented incidences of abuse on the part of the TSA. I would not feel comfortable with the TSA even taking her out of my sight, because if anything abusive happened, she would not be able to communicate that, due to the aphasia. It's surprising that people can be so nasty, but while a lot of the TSA people are decent folks that think they're doing something patriotic, some of them are bottom-of-the-barrel scum who would not be employable anywhere else. And some of them get off on having unchecked power. There might actually be some kind of procedure to go with a person as a caretaker and be allowed to _stay_ with them, that I'm just unaware of.

anigbrowl 14y ago

The TSA is a direct, overt violation of the 4th amendment (search and seizure). Thus, the US federal government is not legitimate under the US Constitution. Don't be so fucking stupid. Apart from the obvious argument that flying is a privilege and not a right, and that you don't need to fly (however impractical this is), even if you were right on the 4th amendment argument it doesn't mean 'the US federal government is not legitimate.' That's just magical thinking. Please, do yourself a favor and read up on the concept of severability. I'm sorry to be so blunt but when you make absurd claims like that then you just chuck your entire argument into the toilet and pointlessly marginalize yourself. Now what would be worth exploring is a constitutional challenge to the TSA under the equal protection clause because of your mother's disability. But declaring the entire government illegitimate? Don't you think that with so many lawyers in the US and almost 12 years since the TSA was created, if your idea held any water that it would have been the subject of a major legal battle by now?

trust-me 14y ago
USSR existed for 69 years, no major battles were brought over institutions like KGB, that were breaking the democratic soviet constitution.
DaemonXI 14y ago
Take it easy with the tone. No need to be confrontational.
- trust-me 14y ago
  Being confrontational is very often a great strategy, especially in front of a dumb crowd (luckily the Eternal September is yet to happen in full force here).
  - javert 14y ago
    But (a) I'm not dumb (I was the guy being confronted), and (b) that is not a great strategy on HN because you will be downvoted to oblivion, as happened in this case.

rhizome 14y ago

And Americans complain about nationalized industries in other countries.

javert 14y ago
Which is fine, as long as a given _individual_ is consistent. For example, I complain about non-retaliatory coercion wherever I see it, including nationalized industries in other countries, the TSA, and US government-granted monopolies to telecom companies. America is an _extremely_ diverse place, and generic online American-bashing just isn't appropriate (despite being quite popular), so please try to avoid it.
- rhizome 14y ago
  I believe that there are governmental-media tendencies that create institutional criticisms rooted in hypocrisy. See also: stereotyping and bigotry, and as an example I would say the US's unified message that nationalizing oil in Venezuela was bad is an example of this kind of bigotry. I'm also a lifelong Californian, so follow your own advice regarding diversity when condescending that my criticism necessarily depends on regional ignorance or outsiderism.

zapdrive 14y ago

> No, I am not advocating rebellion, violent or otherwise. Freedom and rights have never been offered on a platter. You have to fight for them. And you have to keep fighting to maintain them.