3 ms·

Working as a programmer at a startup is different than starting one. I don't think that he is saying to start your own.

by ryderm 14y ago

rgbrenner 14y ago
Fair enough. Then I would like to see the speech from the employee who jumped ship from their stable job at BigCorp to a startup that went bust 6 months later. Or the person who works at the slow-growth startup where little exciting happens because the company never really goes viral (or whatever), but he's still expected to work 60 hours a week. The chances that the startup you go to work for is the next GitHub is incredibly small.
- aeontech 14y ago
  I think your viewpoint is unduly pessimistic. Yes, if you're a Java programmer at a BigCorp, you can be making considerably more than a programmer at a startup. But a programmer at a startup is still making considerably more than average income in this country. Yes, some startups are badly managed and burn out their employees. But I've seen plenty of death marches at BigCorps - witness the tales of terror from the game industry especially. In the end it's up to you to judge the company for both human and career aspects, and to choose wisely who you work for. In ten years of working in the bay area, I have not regretted working for startups once. In short - mileage will vary.
  - rgbrenner 14y ago
    I'm merely balancing out the unduly optimistic powerpoint slides.
    - achompas 14y ago
      He actually devotes a few slides to picking the right company (the part about the company being a burning money pit or whatever). I think you're reading a whole lot of optimism that isn't there.
- the_economist 14y ago
  A talented programmer won't be out of work for long if the startup he works for fails.
  - rhizome 14y ago
    That sounds like a tautology to me: if they wind up being out of work for long, then they aren't a talented programmer?
brownbat 14y ago
I don't work as a programmer, but many of my friends do. A number of them worked for startups or smaller companies right out of school. Over beers I got a few impressions, not sure if they're reliable as an outsider, but it seems like, yeah, best case is in the slides. Even if you're not an insta-millionaire, you make a dent in a really great product. But I saw more of the worst case: a lot of 80+ hour weeks for a kinda nutty guy who keeps trying to replace your salary with stock options that hold dubious value. His sense of vision is so strong that he doesn't listen when you offer advice (like chuck the half of the code, you fired the guy who wrote it for a reason.) I know, it's easy to say, "if you aren't 100% sure of the product's value, or it doesn't have great people, then quit..." But fresh out of school, no idea what businesses are ultimately going to succeed or fail, not a lot of experience to know what working dynamics are normal and which are incredibly sketchy... it's hard to know when to leave, or where you'd go if you did. Especially if you're looking to build a resume with experience that doesn't include 'bails at the first sign of trouble.' Maybe those are the lessons to teach new CS grads: how to evaluate your first job (since you have nothing to compare it against). Maybe quit ten jobs after a month, then keep the next job that's better than all the previous jobs? :)

Working as a programmer at a startup is different than starting one. I don't think that he is saying to start your own.

by ryderm 14y ago

Working as a programmer at a startup is different than starting one. I don't think that he is saying to start your own.

Fair enough. Then I would like to see the speech from the employee who jumped ship from their stable job at BigCorp to a startup that went bust 6 months later. Or the person who works at the slow-growth startup where little exciting happens because the company never really goes viral (or whatever), but he's still expected to work 60 hours a week. The chances that the startup you go to work for is the next GitHub is incredibly small.

aeontech 14y ago
I think your viewpoint is unduly pessimistic. Yes, if you're a Java programmer at a BigCorp, you can be making considerably more than a programmer at a startup. But a programmer at a startup is still making considerably more than average income in this country. Yes, some startups are badly managed and burn out their employees. But I've seen plenty of death marches at BigCorps - witness the tales of terror from the game industry especially. In the end it's up to you to judge the company for both human and career aspects, and to choose wisely who you work for. In ten years of working in the bay area, I have not regretted working for startups once. In short - mileage will vary.
- rgbrenner 14y ago
  I'm merely balancing out the unduly optimistic powerpoint slides.
  - achompas 14y ago
    He actually devotes a few slides to picking the right company (the part about the company being a burning money pit or whatever). I think you're reading a whole lot of optimism that isn't there.
the_economist 14y ago
A talented programmer won't be out of work for long if the startup he works for fails.
- rhizome 14y ago
  That sounds like a tautology to me: if they wind up being out of work for long, then they aren't a talented programmer?

brownbat 14y ago

I don't work as a programmer, but many of my friends do. A number of them worked for startups or smaller companies right out of school. Over beers I got a few impressions, not sure if they're reliable as an outsider, but it seems like, yeah, best case is in the slides. Even if you're not an insta-millionaire, you make a dent in a really great product. But I saw more of the worst case: a lot of 80+ hour weeks for a kinda nutty guy who keeps trying to replace your salary with stock options that hold dubious value. His sense of vision is so strong that he doesn't listen when you offer advice (like chuck the half of the code, you fired the guy who wrote it for a reason.) I know, it's easy to say, "if you aren't 100% sure of the product's value, or it doesn't have great people, then quit..." But fresh out of school, no idea what businesses are ultimately going to succeed or fail, not a lot of experience to know what working dynamics are normal and which are incredibly sketchy... it's hard to know when to leave, or where you'd go if you did. Especially if you're looking to build a resume with experience that doesn't include 'bails at the first sign of trouble.' Maybe those are the lessons to teach new CS grads: how to evaluate your first job (since you have nothing to compare it against). Maybe quit ten jobs after a month, then keep the next job that's better than all the previous jobs? :)