4 ms·

Greenspun is spot on with most of this, IMO. Singer might be a great ethicist, but he seems to have no concept of the simple rules of economics and industry. I

by sho 18y ago

Greenspun is spot on with most of this, IMO. Singer might be a great ethicist, but he seems to have no concept of the simple rules of economics and industry. I respect his intentions, of course, but good intentions without good information are useless - worse than useless, even. A country that's short on food should have a powerful, built-in incentive to, you know, grow food. If the elites aren't letting that happen, there's a powerful incentive for the population to oppose them. If there's no economy, it gives incentive to create one. It might be painful for the West to watch as the wheels too-slowly start to turn, but turn they will, eventually. But in Singer's mind, it's "unethical" to watch this process, so he wants to interfere with foreign aid - removing all local incentives and basically putting an entire country on welfare. And because the whole mainstream society is in the same boat, there's no "social shame" incentives to get off welfare - it just becomes "food from God", or, worse, from the next best thing, the local dictator. Now the country's even worse off, really. They're addicted to foreign aid like Heroin. It might sound cold but incentives are the only proven way to make anyone do anything. Those incentives don't have to be money - I hope that one day we can get rid of money and work for the pride of recognition, or for some other reasons - but clearly for now, we need money or trade or whatever to motivate people. Take that away, flood a market with free food, and no-one is going to start a farm. Why should they? The incentives are gone. Worse, they've been perverted: better off to try and control the supply of the free food! It's not impossible, though. If we really do want to provide a baseline food diet for everyone in the world, and it certainly is a noble idea, then we just have to provide a baseline food buying program for everyone in the world, too. You can't buy from one market, strengthening their food industry, to dump on another, destroying theirs. But if you promise to buy from both and distribute a baseline to those in need - maybe it's possible. However, there is the small matter of that you'd be commencing a global experiment in command economy unprecedented in history ;)

jibiki 18y ago
Ok, let's see some numbers. What percentage of the African GDP comes from foreign aid? What percentage of Africa is fed by free food? The ability of both sides of this issue to avoid discussing numbers is nothing short of alarming. You make these blanket statements like "They're addicted to foreign aid like Heroin." Really? There's some good discussion on: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/another-call-to-end-aid-to-africa.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/another-call-to-end-ai... It's entirely possible to conclude that aid isn't helping Africa, but it's asinine to say that it's the primary cause for Africa's economic problems, unless you're willing to examine the numbers.
- sho 18y ago
  Numbers? What numbers would you like to see? I'm talking from first principles here, like Singer. He's saying it's unethical to not help the poor, I'm saying it is often counterproductive to do so in a naive manner. No numbers are necessary to debate this point. And sure, a country with no food production capacity is addicted to foreign food aid exactly like Heroin. Look, I'm trying to argue from first principles here, not get into a number-slinging exercise. I'm trying to counter Singer's broad strokes with some broad strokes of my own - kind of "concept V. concept". I can get nuanced if you like. For example, you ask what percentage of the African continental GDP comes from foreign aid? Well, the answer is "not much". But take out the "rich" countries and it multiplies rapidly. Remove the oil revenue, mostly kept by the elite, and it goes up even further. I don't want to commit too much but I would estimate that in the real, nominal GDP of aid-receiving african areas (just the people, not the oil industry nearby) foreign aid is above 30%. That is a hugely distorting figure, and it is very conservative btw. What percentage of Africa is fed by free food? That's the wrong question. The right question is about food dependency in a single area over time vs an area that didn't receive food aid, and I don't have any numbers for that. I didn't say aid is the primary cause. It's an attempted solution, although it then goes on to cause a whole range of secondary failures. The primary cause would be governance, but that's not what Singer talks about. That link does have some interesting discussion, and I'm also a fan of Overcoming Bias.
  - jibiki 18y ago
    That makes sense; I have to admit that I haven't read Singer's book, but it seemed like you were telling a story about foreign aid being Africa's biggest problem. This story is very common, but it's just not true. Cutting off all foreign aid to Africa would, literally, be letting people die. Lots of people. That's a very sobering thought, but it's easier to accept it if you tell yourself a story about foreign aid turning Africa into a giant welfare state. Libertarians love to hide behind this comforting fiction. Phil Greenspun's point is exactly the same. The bleeding heart types tell themselves a story about saving children for $0.30 a day which totally ignores the long term repercussions of their actions. The story is infinitely more complicated than your first principles deductions, as we can see by looking at real world countries that have received massive influxes of outside money (Dubai, Israel, South Korea(?), Cuba vs. numerous African countries and oil producers.) I think the correct answer lies in the fact that giving aid to a government that isn't ready for it is a recipe for disaster, or at least, not a recipe for progress.

by sho 18y ago

jibiki 18y ago

Ok, let's see some numbers. What percentage of the African GDP comes from foreign aid? What percentage of Africa is fed by free food? The ability of both sides of this issue to avoid discussing numbers is nothing short of alarming. You make these blanket statements like "They're addicted to foreign aid like Heroin." Really? There's some good discussion on: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/another-call-to-end-aid-to-africa.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/another-call-to-end-ai... It's entirely possible to conclude that aid isn't helping Africa, but it's asinine to say that it's the primary cause for Africa's economic problems, unless you're willing to examine the numbers.

sho 18y ago
Numbers? What numbers would you like to see? I'm talking from first principles here, like Singer. He's saying it's unethical to not help the poor, I'm saying it is often counterproductive to do so in a naive manner. No numbers are necessary to debate this point. And sure, a country with no food production capacity is addicted to foreign food aid exactly like Heroin. Look, I'm trying to argue from first principles here, not get into a number-slinging exercise. I'm trying to counter Singer's broad strokes with some broad strokes of my own - kind of "concept V. concept". I can get nuanced if you like. For example, you ask what percentage of the African continental GDP comes from foreign aid? Well, the answer is "not much". But take out the "rich" countries and it multiplies rapidly. Remove the oil revenue, mostly kept by the elite, and it goes up even further. I don't want to commit too much but I would estimate that in the real, nominal GDP of aid-receiving african areas (just the people, not the oil industry nearby) foreign aid is above 30%. That is a hugely distorting figure, and it is very conservative btw. What percentage of Africa is fed by free food? That's the wrong question. The right question is about food dependency in a single area over time vs an area that didn't receive food aid, and I don't have any numbers for that. I didn't say aid is the primary cause. It's an attempted solution, although it then goes on to cause a whole range of secondary failures. The primary cause would be governance, but that's not what Singer talks about. That link does have some interesting discussion, and I'm also a fan of Overcoming Bias.
- jibiki 18y ago
  That makes sense; I have to admit that I haven't read Singer's book, but it seemed like you were telling a story about foreign aid being Africa's biggest problem. This story is very common, but it's just not true. Cutting off all foreign aid to Africa would, literally, be letting people die. Lots of people. That's a very sobering thought, but it's easier to accept it if you tell yourself a story about foreign aid turning Africa into a giant welfare state. Libertarians love to hide behind this comforting fiction. Phil Greenspun's point is exactly the same. The bleeding heart types tell themselves a story about saving children for $0.30 a day which totally ignores the long term repercussions of their actions. The story is infinitely more complicated than your first principles deductions, as we can see by looking at real world countries that have received massive influxes of outside money (Dubai, Israel, South Korea(?), Cuba vs. numerous African countries and oil producers.) I think the correct answer lies in the fact that giving aid to a government that isn't ready for it is a recipe for disaster, or at least, not a recipe for progress.