4 ms·

The Eurozone is structured to suck the money out of peripheral economies in times of crisis It seems like Greece is doing much of the sucking, much to the chag

The Eurozone is structured to suck the money out of peripheral economies in times of crisis It seems like Greece is doing much of the sucking, much to the chagrin of their stern German neighbors. I don't see the Euro as structurally deficient, I really think this problem is a due to Greek culture in the early 2000s being incompatible with the EU. Remember that Cyprus is a very small country, being half the size of Pittsburgh. I think many people forget why the Euro exists. It exists to grow trade and foster connections between European countries, and it serves to level them and their societies. This is a social agenda. If Greece stays in the Euro their culture will have changed for the better.

kaoD 14y ago
That sounds a lot like colonization.
Samuel_Michon 14y ago
“Remember that Cyprus is a very small country, being half the size of Pittsburgh.” Cyprus is small, but it's not that small. Pittsburgh, PA: 305,704 people (Pittsburgh metro area is 2.36 million though) Cyprus: 786,873 people Pittsburgh, PA: 55.37 mi^2 Cyprus: 3572 mi^2 Courtesy of Wolfram|Alpha: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=size+pittsburgh%2C+pa+vs+cyprus http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=size+pittsburgh%2C+pa+v... http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+pittsburgh%2C+pa+vs+cyprus http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+pittsburgh%2...
- rayiner 14y ago
  I don't know why you wouldn't look at the city's metro area. And if you look at GDP, really Cyprus is 1/4 the size of Pittsburgh.
- vacri 14y ago
  The way some Americans rate city populations is weird to my (Australian) sensibilities. We assume the metro area in the city population - because the city is referred to as a whole. If I go to visit a friend in the metro areas of Sydney, I'm still 'going to Sydney', not 'the Sydney metro area'.
  - virtualritz 14y ago
    Actually, not some Americans, but some (or all) Australians. It all depends on the pov. :) Europe is the same as is most of the first world as far as bigger cities go (bigger meaning >=1 million inhabitants). There is "city population" and "metro area population" (outside the well-defined boundaries of the city). In the 3rd world this data granularity often isn't available. In Australia, I guess it may be available but the distinction simply isn't made (which also helps making you feel bit more "important" when comparing Aussie city sizes to other big cities in the world, I guess). ;) When I lived in Australia I wondered why Sydney felt so small, smaller even than my home town Hamburg, in Germany. Even though it was supposed to have 4.5 million inhabitants while Hamburg barely has 2 million. After understanding this it all made sense. Hamburg has 1.75 million city + 3.25 metro area = 5 million ... in 3rd world/Aussie city population math. :) Check Wolftram Alpha; you'll find there is no metro population area data for most 3rd world/Australian cities, but it is there is for most big cities in the rest of the first world.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      I think it's because American/Australian cities are sprawlier, so using metro area makes them sound bigger. At 1.75 million, Hamburg would be solidly the 5th largest city in the U.S. However at 5 million it would only be the 10th largest metro area.
  - illuminate 14y ago
    "We assume the metro area in the city population - because the city is referred to as a whole. If I go to visit a friend in the metro areas of Sydney, I'm still 'going to Sydney', not 'the Sydney metro area'." Generally it's more the people in the US metro areas who make that distinction, the persons who visit and live in the outlying areas and suburbs do not.
vixen99 14y ago
An issue with Greek culture? Yes but what about Spain, Italy and Portugal, Ireland - and now maybe Slovenia? They also have immense problems thanks to their Euro status. Truth is that these counties should never have been asked to join the Euro in the first place and this problem will never be fixed while they remain. However it's the big cosy idea that counts in the minds of the Eurocrats, never mind the human cost. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/9957999/Cyprus-has-finally-killed-myth-that-EMU-is-benign.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_prit...
- bayesianhorse 14y ago
  They are all dealing with their own problems, it's just that almost every country is dealing with their issues instead of postponing it. You can picture it as going through therapy or adolescence. And boy what a drama that is...
  - barking 14y ago
    Growing up doesn't usually involve reducing a person's responsibilities. With the advent of the ECB that's what's happened. Now every little eurozone country has to get used to working with interest rates that are effectively set to suit Germany. In the noughties that meant having cheap money because Germany was in the doldrums. Of course fiscal policies could have been used to dampen down demand in the overheated peripheral economies at that time. And to a certain extent there were. In Ireland, in about 2002, there was a very generous tax-free savings scheme if people to put away money for 5 years. Practically everyone who had the money bought into it to the maximum limit allowed. It was completely inadequate though and a lot more should have been done. However the trend in Europe is also to harmonise fiscal policy. So to me it looks like, if we know what's good for us, we will all have to get into line with the German economy. In the future we will be paying ever closer attention to internal German politics and economic affairs. Maybe that's a good thing, the Germans do seem to know how to run an economy but I don't think 'growing up' is a metaphor I'd use for it.
    - youngtaff 14y ago
cgio 14y ago
You have to check your numbers ;-) In fact, all the bail out money goes to interest payments. Therefore, no sucking just moving money from one pocket (Germans) to the other (German banks). On Germans, we have to have another discussion on their role in corruption in Greece and elsewhere... Maybe they are ripping too the fruits of their corrupted business practices (Siemens and many many more in various cases globally.)

kaoD 14y ago

That sounds a lot like colonization.

Samuel_Michon 14y ago

“Remember that Cyprus is a very small country, being half the size of Pittsburgh.” Cyprus is small, but it's not that small. Pittsburgh, PA: 305,704 people (Pittsburgh metro area is 2.36 million though) Cyprus: 786,873 people Pittsburgh, PA: 55.37 mi^2 Cyprus: 3572 mi^2 Courtesy of Wolfram|Alpha: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=size+pittsburgh%2C+pa+vs+cyprus http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=size+pittsburgh%2C+pa+v... http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+pittsburgh%2C+pa+vs+cyprus http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+pittsburgh%2...

rayiner 14y ago
I don't know why you wouldn't look at the city's metro area. And if you look at GDP, really Cyprus is 1/4 the size of Pittsburgh.
vacri 14y ago
The way some Americans rate city populations is weird to my (Australian) sensibilities. We assume the metro area in the city population - because the city is referred to as a whole. If I go to visit a friend in the metro areas of Sydney, I'm still 'going to Sydney', not 'the Sydney metro area'.
- virtualritz 14y ago
  Actually, not some Americans, but some (or all) Australians. It all depends on the pov. :) Europe is the same as is most of the first world as far as bigger cities go (bigger meaning >=1 million inhabitants). There is "city population" and "metro area population" (outside the well-defined boundaries of the city). In the 3rd world this data granularity often isn't available. In Australia, I guess it may be available but the distinction simply isn't made (which also helps making you feel bit more "important" when comparing Aussie city sizes to other big cities in the world, I guess). ;) When I lived in Australia I wondered why Sydney felt so small, smaller even than my home town Hamburg, in Germany. Even though it was supposed to have 4.5 million inhabitants while Hamburg barely has 2 million. After understanding this it all made sense. Hamburg has 1.75 million city + 3.25 metro area = 5 million ... in 3rd world/Aussie city population math. :) Check Wolftram Alpha; you'll find there is no metro population area data for most 3rd world/Australian cities, but it is there is for most big cities in the rest of the first world.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    I think it's because American/Australian cities are sprawlier, so using metro area makes them sound bigger. At 1.75 million, Hamburg would be solidly the 5th largest city in the U.S. However at 5 million it would only be the 10th largest metro area.
- illuminate 14y ago
  "We assume the metro area in the city population - because the city is referred to as a whole. If I go to visit a friend in the metro areas of Sydney, I'm still 'going to Sydney', not 'the Sydney metro area'." Generally it's more the people in the US metro areas who make that distinction, the persons who visit and live in the outlying areas and suburbs do not.

vixen99 14y ago

An issue with Greek culture? Yes but what about Spain, Italy and Portugal, Ireland - and now maybe Slovenia? They also have immense problems thanks to their Euro status. Truth is that these counties should never have been asked to join the Euro in the first place and this problem will never be fixed while they remain. However it's the big cosy idea that counts in the minds of the Eurocrats, never mind the human cost. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/9957999/Cyprus-has-finally-killed-myth-that-EMU-is-benign.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_prit...

bayesianhorse 14y ago
They are all dealing with their own problems, it's just that almost every country is dealing with their issues instead of postponing it. You can picture it as going through therapy or adolescence. And boy what a drama that is...
- barking 14y ago
  Growing up doesn't usually involve reducing a person's responsibilities. With the advent of the ECB that's what's happened. Now every little eurozone country has to get used to working with interest rates that are effectively set to suit Germany. In the noughties that meant having cheap money because Germany was in the doldrums. Of course fiscal policies could have been used to dampen down demand in the overheated peripheral economies at that time. And to a certain extent there were. In Ireland, in about 2002, there was a very generous tax-free savings scheme if people to put away money for 5 years. Practically everyone who had the money bought into it to the maximum limit allowed. It was completely inadequate though and a lot more should have been done. However the trend in Europe is also to harmonise fiscal policy. So to me it looks like, if we know what's good for us, we will all have to get into line with the German economy. In the future we will be paying ever closer attention to internal German politics and economic affairs. Maybe that's a good thing, the Germans do seem to know how to run an economy but I don't think 'growing up' is a metaphor I'd use for it.
  - youngtaff 14y ago

cgio 14y ago

You have to check your numbers ;-) In fact, all the bail out money goes to interest payments. Therefore, no sucking just moving money from one pocket (Germans) to the other (German banks). On Germans, we have to have another discussion on their role in corruption in Greece and elsewhere... Maybe they are ripping too the fruits of their corrupted business practices (Siemens and many many more in various cases globally.)