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I was a carpenter for the better part of my 20s. Definitely many stories like this that came up. The one that bothered me the most was how many times they looke

I was a carpenter for the better part of my 20s. Definitely many stories like this that came up. The one that bothered me the most was how many times they looked at me silly for making a "bad" cut, when of course, I was making said cut because the area wasn't square. I had one guy get angry at me for making a frame that was visibly crooked, so I told him he should probably make it square and hang it up himself. When he put the piece up and saw it didn't fit flush, he apologized and said I was right after all. I then told him that was the last piece of wood. Sometimes the respect is hard-earned. I just chalked it up to the amount of times they got screwed over by people of lower ability, so in general, there was a lot of defensiveness. The male-role thing was apparent, but after earning respect and trust, they pretty much always got out of my way. I've had, quite often, jobs where I was more or less helping the home owner build and those were the most enjoyable and memorable moments. Contrary to what this story suggests, it was usually the rich folk who got on their hands and knees beside me and pounded nails. I think it was about perspective. The rich folk seemed more willing to learn it, try it, and logic out the problem. The middle class folk didn't seem to willing to learn or want to get their hands dirty, so usually they weren't present and were more prone to complaining. Construction is super easy if you can think about the problem from multiple perspectives. I find it surprising how few people have the capacity to view the world in this way.

sliverstorm 14y ago
The rich folk seemed more willing to learn it, try it, and logic out the problem. The middle class folk ... usually weren't present and were more prone to complaining. Or, the middle class folks didn't have time to hang around, while rich folk don't always work 9-5.
- DuskStar 14y ago
  Or that the rich folk might have gotten that way through being "more willing to learn it, try it, and logic out the problem."
  - InclinedPlane 14y ago
    The richest people I know personally are all incredibly hard workers with rather wide-ranging skillsets and certainly a willingness to try new things. But that's just anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt.
    - mvc 14y ago
      I think what we've learned here is that the only thing rich people have in common is that they all have a lot of money.
      - jgj 14y ago
        As a rich person with very little money I am offended ;)
    - dizzystar 14y ago
      Exactly this. It is all anecdotal. I was just telling an opposing anecdote the the original story. It does depend on what you are doing and how difficult the particular job is. Cutting wood and hammering nails is easy and somehow relaxing. Tiling walls and roofing are both difficult and easy to screw up, and I don't think I ever had the homeowner with me on those occasions. Painting, laying linoleum, hanging prefab cabinets, etc are all easy to do and easy to take part ownership in. I like the thought that a homeowner can brag to their friends that "they" built something.
      - WalterBright 14y ago
        Having some sweat equity, as an owner, is really nice. It just gives you a good feeling about your house, car, etc., to know that you built at least some of it with your own hands. I love to work on my muscle car. To me, just writing a check to buy someone else's muscle car is not interesting, nor does anyone have "cred" with me if they just bought it.
        techdmn 14y ago
- dizzystar 14y ago
  Not in my experience. I usually worked alone and I never had anyone just hand me their keys. I used to work on weekends as well. It is a smart play, IMO, to not let random people walk into your house with no one there to protect the fortress, if you get my drift.
- scubaguy 14y ago
  In addition to a 9-5 job, some people also have to drive the kids around, shop for groceries at multiple places, and other things that more well off people can pay others to do. When you make good money, you have the option to learn and try new things. Money doesn't buy happiness, but it does buy you the luxury of not being accused of "not willing to learn, try, and logic out things".
- randomdata 14y ago
  Perhaps rich people have held positions of managing people, and know, through that experience, when they can jump in and help and when to let the professional guide them? Whereas someone in the middle class may have always been an employee and don't have the same comfortability taking charge and stepping in to help, unless specifically directed to do so.
namank 14y ago
I think that most self-made rich people are over that mental barrier where they know that everything in the world is made by people like themselves. So they aren't afraid to participate in new things. I`ve definitely have had my share of folks that like the pretentiousness. As it turns out, they are also the easiest to screw with.
andrewcooke 14y ago
as someone who is "really" middle class, but moved to a country where they ended up being "upper class" (kind-of) just through changing the context - it really does feel different when the person you are paying is charging so little you just don't care. all stress goes out of the relationship - you can truly say "don't worry about time, or cost, just do a good job". it's a real pleasure.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
a_p 14y ago
Using Fussell's class breakdown [1], it is likely that you haven't worked for any people in the "upper class"; you have met the several varieties of the middle class. Fussell's definitions of the class is more about their tastes and behaviors than about how rich they are. The upper classes would never get on their hands and knees and pound nails, because they feel that it is beneath them. The uppers are content with who they are, and don't give a damn what the lower classes think. But they are also uninterested in new ideas and would not be curious about your profession. The rich people that you work for are likely to be upper middle class. They are likely to have earned their wealth by working hard, so they can relate to the hard work you do, even if their work was "white collar" instead of "blue collar". The "middle class" that you describe seem to be Fussell's "middle" or "high proletarian". They are near enough to your class that they are bitter to you because they feel threatened by you, or because they think that their snobbery makes them better than you (it doesn't — usually this is the mark of a person with low self confidence). They might also not be there when you work, because are also at work. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253 http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/d...
- ryusage 14y ago
  As a note, at first glance, this comment seems to be saying that they could not have been upper class because they weren't horribly condescending and close-minded, and that this is the entire definition of upper class. Looking at the book description, I take it that these are meant to be heuristics for guessing a random person's position in the class system? That seems more useful. I'm still not convinced it makes sense to apply that here, though, as the OP was working in these people's homes, and certainly has a very good idea what sort of people they were.
JPKab 14y ago
I also was a carpenter for half of my 20's. We should start a support group. I think the building mindset has contributed greatly to my mentality for software. Interesting thing mentioned in the article: Men are pressured to know this stuff, and women are pressured to know how to "cook and be domestic." I should add that I'm guilty of it myself. A work colleague got a flat tire, and he and his girlfriend were stranded until help came because he didn't know how to change it. I gave him flack for it before I realized I was being unfair to him. His girlfriend was much worse to him than I was FYI. Well, the fact is that the pressure isn't equal anymore. Women, especially younger women, are pretty damned comfortable admitting they are terrible cooks. Annoyingly, I'm a much better cook than any woman I've ever dated, which I must admit is a sign of social progress. Their mothers didn't want them to feel like it was their duty to cook, so they were never taught. But rejecting a useful skill outright has its disadvantages. My twin brother has very little building experience, but lucky for him at least has the aptitude for it. His wife, a professional who is quite possibly the worst cook alive, has hounded him, in front of me, for not being a "real man" because he can't fix something himself in the house, and now they have to pay somebody else to do it. Over time, he's gotten confident enough to take on stuff himself, but I also advised him that everytime she pulls that shit to think of a very complicated recipe and ask her to cook it for him. When she replies that she can't cook it, give her the "you're not a real woman" treatment so she can see how unfair she is being.
- AutoCorrect 14y ago
  so are they still married? :) Being broke makes you learn things too: for most of my 20s (and 30s, and 40s) I haven't had the money to pay people to do things for me. So I learned to do them myself - not always expertly, but they get done. I think a lot of people have fallen into the fallacy that 'time is money', and spend their time on Mad Men instead of fixing stuff around the house.

sliverstorm 14y ago

The rich folk seemed more willing to learn it, try it, and logic out the problem. The middle class folk ... usually weren't present and were more prone to complaining. Or, the middle class folks didn't have time to hang around, while rich folk don't always work 9-5.

DuskStar 14y ago
Or that the rich folk might have gotten that way through being "more willing to learn it, try it, and logic out the problem."
- InclinedPlane 14y ago
  The richest people I know personally are all incredibly hard workers with rather wide-ranging skillsets and certainly a willingness to try new things. But that's just anecdotal so take it with a grain of salt.
  - mvc 14y ago
    I think what we've learned here is that the only thing rich people have in common is that they all have a lot of money.
    - jgj 14y ago
      As a rich person with very little money I am offended ;)
  - dizzystar 14y ago
    Exactly this. It is all anecdotal. I was just telling an opposing anecdote the the original story. It does depend on what you are doing and how difficult the particular job is. Cutting wood and hammering nails is easy and somehow relaxing. Tiling walls and roofing are both difficult and easy to screw up, and I don't think I ever had the homeowner with me on those occasions. Painting, laying linoleum, hanging prefab cabinets, etc are all easy to do and easy to take part ownership in. I like the thought that a homeowner can brag to their friends that "they" built something.
    - WalterBright 14y ago
      Having some sweat equity, as an owner, is really nice. It just gives you a good feeling about your house, car, etc., to know that you built at least some of it with your own hands. I love to work on my muscle car. To me, just writing a check to buy someone else's muscle car is not interesting, nor does anyone have "cred" with me if they just bought it.
      - techdmn 14y ago
dizzystar 14y ago
Not in my experience. I usually worked alone and I never had anyone just hand me their keys. I used to work on weekends as well. It is a smart play, IMO, to not let random people walk into your house with no one there to protect the fortress, if you get my drift.
scubaguy 14y ago
In addition to a 9-5 job, some people also have to drive the kids around, shop for groceries at multiple places, and other things that more well off people can pay others to do. When you make good money, you have the option to learn and try new things. Money doesn't buy happiness, but it does buy you the luxury of not being accused of "not willing to learn, try, and logic out things".
randomdata 14y ago
Perhaps rich people have held positions of managing people, and know, through that experience, when they can jump in and help and when to let the professional guide them? Whereas someone in the middle class may have always been an employee and don't have the same comfortability taking charge and stepping in to help, unless specifically directed to do so.

namank 14y ago

I think that most self-made rich people are over that mental barrier where they know that everything in the world is made by people like themselves. So they aren't afraid to participate in new things. I`ve definitely have had my share of folks that like the pretentiousness. As it turns out, they are also the easiest to screw with.

andrewcooke 14y ago

as someone who is "really" middle class, but moved to a country where they ended up being "upper class" (kind-of) just through changing the context - it really does feel different when the person you are paying is charging so little you just don't care. all stress goes out of the relationship - you can truly say "don't worry about time, or cost, just do a good job". it's a real pleasure.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

a_p 14y ago

Using Fussell's class breakdown [1], it is likely that you haven't worked for any people in the "upper class"; you have met the several varieties of the middle class. Fussell's definitions of the class is more about their tastes and behaviors than about how rich they are. The upper classes would never get on their hands and knees and pound nails, because they feel that it is beneath them. The uppers are content with who they are, and don't give a damn what the lower classes think. But they are also uninterested in new ideas and would not be curious about your profession. The rich people that you work for are likely to be upper middle class. They are likely to have earned their wealth by working hard, so they can relate to the hard work you do, even if their work was "white collar" instead of "blue collar". The "middle class" that you describe seem to be Fussell's "middle" or "high proletarian". They are near enough to your class that they are bitter to you because they feel threatened by you, or because they think that their snobbery makes them better than you (it doesn't — usually this is the mark of a person with low self confidence). They might also not be there when you work, because are also at work. [1] http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/dp/0671792253 http://www.amazon.com/Class-Through-American-Status-System/d...

ryusage 14y ago
As a note, at first glance, this comment seems to be saying that they could not have been upper class because they weren't horribly condescending and close-minded, and that this is the entire definition of upper class. Looking at the book description, I take it that these are meant to be heuristics for guessing a random person's position in the class system? That seems more useful. I'm still not convinced it makes sense to apply that here, though, as the OP was working in these people's homes, and certainly has a very good idea what sort of people they were.

JPKab 14y ago

I also was a carpenter for half of my 20's. We should start a support group. I think the building mindset has contributed greatly to my mentality for software. Interesting thing mentioned in the article: Men are pressured to know this stuff, and women are pressured to know how to "cook and be domestic." I should add that I'm guilty of it myself. A work colleague got a flat tire, and he and his girlfriend were stranded until help came because he didn't know how to change it. I gave him flack for it before I realized I was being unfair to him. His girlfriend was much worse to him than I was FYI. Well, the fact is that the pressure isn't equal anymore. Women, especially younger women, are pretty damned comfortable admitting they are terrible cooks. Annoyingly, I'm a much better cook than any woman I've ever dated, which I must admit is a sign of social progress. Their mothers didn't want them to feel like it was their duty to cook, so they were never taught. But rejecting a useful skill outright has its disadvantages. My twin brother has very little building experience, but lucky for him at least has the aptitude for it. His wife, a professional who is quite possibly the worst cook alive, has hounded him, in front of me, for not being a "real man" because he can't fix something himself in the house, and now they have to pay somebody else to do it. Over time, he's gotten confident enough to take on stuff himself, but I also advised him that everytime she pulls that shit to think of a very complicated recipe and ask her to cook it for him. When she replies that she can't cook it, give her the "you're not a real woman" treatment so she can see how unfair she is being.

AutoCorrect 14y ago
so are they still married? :) Being broke makes you learn things too: for most of my 20s (and 30s, and 40s) I haven't had the money to pay people to do things for me. So I learned to do them myself - not always expertly, but they get done. I think a lot of people have fallen into the fallacy that 'time is money', and spend their time on Mad Men instead of fixing stuff around the house.