5 ms·

David Brooks: Good summarization of all the literature on financial collapse.

10 points by anirudh 18y ago

tsally 18y ago
David Brooks is one of my favourite columnists and I still wont sign up for an account to read his writing. Call me stubborn if you'd like :-p.
- mkelly 18y ago
  http://www.bugmenot.com/ http://www.bugmenot.com/
  - tsally 18y ago
    I'm aware of bugmenot, but for me it's an issue of principle not convenience. If everyone took this stance, Bugmenot wouldn't even be necessary.
- MaysonL 18y ago
  Try the following Google search, and read the linked results, and perhaps you'll come to a different appreciation of Mr. Brooks's writings: http://www.google.com/search?q=David+Brooks+site%3Alanguagelog.ldc.upenn.edu http://www.google.com/search?q=David+Brooks+site%3Alanguagel...
cwan 18y ago
Any explanation that ignores the central role that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac played in the crisis leaves a lot to be desired - and can hardly be considered a "good summary" of the financial collapse essentially since they were taken over quite early on in the crisis. Can we also blame traders and financiers for mispricing risk? Definitely - but let's also be clear that government influence through GSE's like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and poor government regulation played a central role in this. Further, as for leverage, high corporate taxes give companies large incentives to borrow to fund growth. What about the role the Fed played in keeping interest rates low and the credit bubble going? Sorry, I really can't see how this summary can be considered even remotely "good".
- jhancock 18y ago
  The leverage is a magnitude or two greater than possible defaults covered by Fannie and Freddie. At least when you talk about home mortgages, you still have a tangible asset behind it. The many layer of leverage on top of this provided phantom value and is where most of the horror is in the big numbers.
adamc 18y ago
I read it and wondered why stupidity vs. greed were presented as exclusive alternatives. They could both be true -- there was a lot of clubby legislation to benefit the financial community, and the models were wrong.
- apinstein 18y ago
  I read the article and wondered that exact thing the whole time, but this type of rhetoric is quite typical of David Brooks. He tends to paint things in a way where such that in the end he can point to the article as a conservative pundit and say "conservatism is the way". He is kind of a wanker in that regard. I have studied markets empirically for a long time. They fascinate me. But ultimately they're very simple. Markets are just games with certain rules. It's human nature to exploit knowledge for gain. And we're very good at it, which is why you see home sapiens running things and not dogs or chimps. The emergent properties of nearly all markets are pretty obvious from the outset if you know the rules and just extrapolate. Brooks is analyzing psychological motives, but he half misses the point (for the above reason; he wanted to come to a conclusion that supported a "conservative" viewpoint). I get really annoyed when people make the argument "but if only people hadn't mis-behaved we wouldn't be in this mess." Umm, any exploitable situation will be exploited by someone. Quit expecting morality to protect humanity. Don't you grok the Tragedy of the Commons? In the case of the financial crisis the market failure was one of externalities. If you look at the value chain of how loans were originated, sold, and re-sold, the current crisis was inevitable. It's always been obvious that several of the layers of the industry simply had no risk, because intermediaries were able to make profit regardless of risk and the risk was concentrated in an external entity. This is my favorite (and funny!) explanation of the situation: http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&skipauth=true&pli=1 http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&... So ultimately stupidity vs greed is a red herring. In reality, a few evil geniuses knew that they could make a ton of money with no risk, and they unleashed their massive resources to turn this money train into a years-long profit engine. The people that caused this have already punched out for more money than they could ever imagine. IMHO the real solution here is: 1) prosecute thousands of people for fraud. 2) Let the current banks rot with the pile of assets they've amassed. 3) capitalize new banks to re-start the credit markets. 3) Vastly increase regulation. It is not in the taxpayers' interest to have a system in which a misbehaving company can destabilize the economy.
cia_plant 18y ago
It is odd to me that so many people are looking for some kind of abnormality which "caused" the crisis. Capitalism has had cyclical crises since its inception 300 years ago, so I would say that the crisis was not "caused" by either greed or stupidity, but is a naturally emergent behavior of the capitalist system. Actually it is even more general than that. The pattern of exponential growth followed by die-off is common throughout nature - algal blooms, for example. It seems that the whole discussion over the financial crisis has been warped and twisted by this absurd belief, in the face of all evidence, that the economy is in some sense "rational," that it has some kind of steady-state equilibrium, and that its problems are therefore caused by too little or too much regulation, too little or too much greed, etc.
- raintrees 18y ago
  With all of the meddling (tariffs, subsidies) by the government, isn't this market closer to mercantilism than capitalism?
  - cia_plant 18y ago
    I don't think the terminology is very much standardized. Our system is not "pure" capitalism, and perhaps it would be better to call it a mixed economy. By using the word capitalism, I mainly meant to contrast it with radically different systems, such as feudalism and central planning (I'm not aware of whether these systems also encountered boom/bust cycles.)
- mighty 18y ago
  > so I would say that the crisis was not "caused" by either greed or stupidity, but is a naturally emergent behavior of the capitalist system. But greed and stupidity are "natural" forces at work within the capitalist system. Asserting that crises are cyclical and "naturally emergent" doesn't rule out greed and stupidity as causes. It actually doesn't say anything about causes at all. I'd also be wary of concluding that because certain phenomena appear to be cyclical, any similar phenomena must necessarily be an expression of that cycle.
  - 18y ago
deleted 18y ago
[deleted]

10 points by anirudh 18y ago

David Brooks is one of my favourite columnists and I still wont sign up for an account to read his writing. Call me stubborn if you'd like :-p.

mkelly 18y ago
http://www.bugmenot.com/ http://www.bugmenot.com/
- tsally 18y ago
  I'm aware of bugmenot, but for me it's an issue of principle not convenience. If everyone took this stance, Bugmenot wouldn't even be necessary.
MaysonL 18y ago
Try the following Google search, and read the linked results, and perhaps you'll come to a different appreciation of Mr. Brooks's writings: http://www.google.com/search?q=David+Brooks+site%3Alanguagelog.ldc.upenn.edu http://www.google.com/search?q=David+Brooks+site%3Alanguagel...

cwan 18y ago

Any explanation that ignores the central role that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac played in the crisis leaves a lot to be desired - and can hardly be considered a "good summary" of the financial collapse essentially since they were taken over quite early on in the crisis. Can we also blame traders and financiers for mispricing risk? Definitely - but let's also be clear that government influence through GSE's like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and poor government regulation played a central role in this. Further, as for leverage, high corporate taxes give companies large incentives to borrow to fund growth. What about the role the Fed played in keeping interest rates low and the credit bubble going? Sorry, I really can't see how this summary can be considered even remotely "good".

jhancock 18y ago
The leverage is a magnitude or two greater than possible defaults covered by Fannie and Freddie. At least when you talk about home mortgages, you still have a tangible asset behind it. The many layer of leverage on top of this provided phantom value and is where most of the horror is in the big numbers.

adamc 18y ago

I read it and wondered why stupidity vs. greed were presented as exclusive alternatives. They could both be true -- there was a lot of clubby legislation to benefit the financial community, and the models were wrong.

apinstein 18y ago
I read the article and wondered that exact thing the whole time, but this type of rhetoric is quite typical of David Brooks. He tends to paint things in a way where such that in the end he can point to the article as a conservative pundit and say "conservatism is the way". He is kind of a wanker in that regard. I have studied markets empirically for a long time. They fascinate me. But ultimately they're very simple. Markets are just games with certain rules. It's human nature to exploit knowledge for gain. And we're very good at it, which is why you see home sapiens running things and not dogs or chimps. The emergent properties of nearly all markets are pretty obvious from the outset if you know the rules and just extrapolate. Brooks is analyzing psychological motives, but he half misses the point (for the above reason; he wanted to come to a conclusion that supported a "conservative" viewpoint). I get really annoyed when people make the argument "but if only people hadn't mis-behaved we wouldn't be in this mess." Umm, any exploitable situation will be exploited by someone. Quit expecting morality to protect humanity. Don't you grok the Tragedy of the Commons? In the case of the financial crisis the market failure was one of externalities. If you look at the value chain of how loans were originated, sold, and re-sold, the current crisis was inevitable. It's always been obvious that several of the layers of the industry simply had no risk, because intermediaries were able to make profit regardless of risk and the risk was concentrated in an external entity. This is my favorite (and funny!) explanation of the situation: http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&skipauth=true&pli=1 http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&... So ultimately stupidity vs greed is a red herring. In reality, a few evil geniuses knew that they could make a ton of money with no risk, and they unleashed their massive resources to turn this money train into a years-long profit engine. The people that caused this have already punched out for more money than they could ever imagine. IMHO the real solution here is: 1) prosecute thousands of people for fraud. 2) Let the current banks rot with the pile of assets they've amassed. 3) capitalize new banks to re-start the credit markets. 3) Vastly increase regulation. It is not in the taxpayers' interest to have a system in which a misbehaving company can destabilize the economy.

cia_plant 18y ago

It is odd to me that so many people are looking for some kind of abnormality which "caused" the crisis. Capitalism has had cyclical crises since its inception 300 years ago, so I would say that the crisis was not "caused" by either greed or stupidity, but is a naturally emergent behavior of the capitalist system. Actually it is even more general than that. The pattern of exponential growth followed by die-off is common throughout nature - algal blooms, for example. It seems that the whole discussion over the financial crisis has been warped and twisted by this absurd belief, in the face of all evidence, that the economy is in some sense "rational," that it has some kind of steady-state equilibrium, and that its problems are therefore caused by too little or too much regulation, too little or too much greed, etc.

raintrees 18y ago
With all of the meddling (tariffs, subsidies) by the government, isn't this market closer to mercantilism than capitalism?
- cia_plant 18y ago
  I don't think the terminology is very much standardized. Our system is not "pure" capitalism, and perhaps it would be better to call it a mixed economy. By using the word capitalism, I mainly meant to contrast it with radically different systems, such as feudalism and central planning (I'm not aware of whether these systems also encountered boom/bust cycles.)
mighty 18y ago
> so I would say that the crisis was not "caused" by either greed or stupidity, but is a naturally emergent behavior of the capitalist system. But greed and stupidity are "natural" forces at work within the capitalist system. Asserting that crises are cyclical and "naturally emergent" doesn't rule out greed and stupidity as causes. It actually doesn't say anything about causes at all. I'd also be wary of concluding that because certain phenomena appear to be cyclical, any similar phenomena must necessarily be an expression of that cycle.
- 18y ago

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]