6 ms·

In general, any sort of unpaid internship biases against people who aren't well enough off to work for free (i.e. whose parents won't support them while they do

by akeefer 18y ago

In general, any sort of unpaid internship biases against people who aren't well enough off to work for free (i.e. whose parents won't support them while they do). It's really a kind of class discrimination that prevents people from lower socioeconomic standing from having much of a chance at certain jobs (like in the finance world) that tend to rely heavily on unpaid internships. One thing I've always liked about my profession is that we tend not to do that in the software industry, which I think makes it more egalitarian and at least helps open up opportunities to people who actually do need to get paid for the summer. It's disappointing to see a reversal in that trend.

physcab 18y ago
Actually I know quite a few people in my unpaid internship (programming) who don't have "real" jobs and are not exactly rich either. What they do is learn the trade by day, and go home at night to contract out their work on e-lance or something. It's basically a homework assignment that pays for your education.
- akeefer 18y ago
  It might not be impossible for everyone, but it's certainly a huge disincentive, and not everyone has the skills or energy to hold down another job that actually pays the bills, or to contract out. On top of that, many internships (like in finance . . . or least like finance used to be) would expect interns to work 60 or 80 hours a week, which would make any sort of additional paid labor basically impossible. Just because some people manage to make it work doesn't mean it's not hugely discriminatory. The thing that really galls me is that most of the time the companies that do this sort of thing are perfectly capable of paying their interns, at least well enough for them to eat and pay rent, they just choose not to because they can get away with it; there are enough college students trying to get a foot in the door and who have other support systems.
- mechanical_fish 18y ago
  Well, that's a good plan. But it doesn't exactly erase the unfairness of the practice. Lack of sleep and stress will cost you both happiness and performance, though you may not recognize that when you're nineteen ;)
  - webwright 18y ago
    How is something consensual unfair? If a person places a low value on their time or a high value on the experience that will be gained, it seems like it might be a reasonable trade. This seems especially true if the person giving up their time isn't in dire straits... i.e. If you offer to pay pennies and breadcrumbs to a starving man, that might not be cool. If you offer a good unpiad experience to a hacker/designer who is otherwise darned employable, it doesn't seem evil at all. If I lived in the Valley and had an opportunity to hang out at YC dinners in exchange for a bit of free work, there was probably a time in my life when I would've taken that opportunity. Random other note: cool that you play the banjo! I've recently begun teaching myself the fiddle.
    - mechanical_fish 18y ago
      My response to this has turned into something the size of the Lord of the Rings, so I'll blog it instead of clogging this page. I need to get back to practicing the banjo. Perhaps one day we can hold a jam. The fiddle is awesome; I recommend the works of Darol Anger, and if you're near the Bay Area watch out for his concerts. Get on the Freight and Salvage mailing list if they have one. (I miss that place, although they have plenty of equivalents in Massachusetts.)
BobbyH 18y ago
Besides any ethical considerations about class-discrimination, unpaid internships are illegal unless the intern gets class credit, because it is a violation of minimum wage laws. Calling a job an "unpaid internship" does not revoke the minimum wage laws. However, these laws are not enforced, which results in more and more companies offering unpaid internships...
- dantheman 18y ago
  No that is incorrect. If you are not being paid then you are volunteering your time, minimum wage laws only apply when you are being paid.
  - BobbyH 18y ago
    This article makes it clear: "In order to qualify as an unpaid internship, the requirement is simple: no work can be performed that is of any benefit at all to the company. That is, you can not deliver mail, sort files, file papers, organize a person’s calendar, conduct market research, write reports, watch television shows and report on them, read scripts, schedule interviews, or any other job that assists the employer in any way in running their business." http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_and_employment_law_/2007/11/unpaid-internsh.html http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_and_employment_law_/2007/1...
- gojomo 18y ago
  IANAL, but I believe a strict literal enforcement of minimum-wage laws also prohibits founders working for their own corporation without salary. (Equity doesn't count for minimum wage calculations.) Much of the bootstrapped-startup culture we celebrate may thus rely on lax enforcement of these laws.
  - BobbyH 18y ago
    Good point, but only employees must be paid the minimum wage. If you founded the company, you are not an employee because you direct your work. The IRS says an employee is "anyone who performs services for an organization is an employee if the organization can control what will be done and how it will be done" (http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=131137,00.html http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=131137,00.html).

by akeefer 18y ago

physcab 18y ago

Actually I know quite a few people in my unpaid internship (programming) who don't have "real" jobs and are not exactly rich either. What they do is learn the trade by day, and go home at night to contract out their work on e-lance or something. It's basically a homework assignment that pays for your education.

akeefer 18y ago
It might not be impossible for everyone, but it's certainly a huge disincentive, and not everyone has the skills or energy to hold down another job that actually pays the bills, or to contract out. On top of that, many internships (like in finance . . . or least like finance used to be) would expect interns to work 60 or 80 hours a week, which would make any sort of additional paid labor basically impossible. Just because some people manage to make it work doesn't mean it's not hugely discriminatory. The thing that really galls me is that most of the time the companies that do this sort of thing are perfectly capable of paying their interns, at least well enough for them to eat and pay rent, they just choose not to because they can get away with it; there are enough college students trying to get a foot in the door and who have other support systems.
mechanical_fish 18y ago
Well, that's a good plan. But it doesn't exactly erase the unfairness of the practice. Lack of sleep and stress will cost you both happiness and performance, though you may not recognize that when you're nineteen ;)
- webwright 18y ago
  How is something consensual unfair? If a person places a low value on their time or a high value on the experience that will be gained, it seems like it might be a reasonable trade. This seems especially true if the person giving up their time isn't in dire straits... i.e. If you offer to pay pennies and breadcrumbs to a starving man, that might not be cool. If you offer a good unpiad experience to a hacker/designer who is otherwise darned employable, it doesn't seem evil at all. If I lived in the Valley and had an opportunity to hang out at YC dinners in exchange for a bit of free work, there was probably a time in my life when I would've taken that opportunity. Random other note: cool that you play the banjo! I've recently begun teaching myself the fiddle.
  - mechanical_fish 18y ago
    My response to this has turned into something the size of the Lord of the Rings, so I'll blog it instead of clogging this page. I need to get back to practicing the banjo. Perhaps one day we can hold a jam. The fiddle is awesome; I recommend the works of Darol Anger, and if you're near the Bay Area watch out for his concerts. Get on the Freight and Salvage mailing list if they have one. (I miss that place, although they have plenty of equivalents in Massachusetts.)

BobbyH 18y ago

Besides any ethical considerations about class-discrimination, unpaid internships are illegal unless the intern gets class credit, because it is a violation of minimum wage laws. Calling a job an "unpaid internship" does not revoke the minimum wage laws. However, these laws are not enforced, which results in more and more companies offering unpaid internships...

dantheman 18y ago
No that is incorrect. If you are not being paid then you are volunteering your time, minimum wage laws only apply when you are being paid.
- BobbyH 18y ago
  This article makes it clear: "In order to qualify as an unpaid internship, the requirement is simple: no work can be performed that is of any benefit at all to the company. That is, you can not deliver mail, sort files, file papers, organize a person’s calendar, conduct market research, write reports, watch television shows and report on them, read scripts, schedule interviews, or any other job that assists the employer in any way in running their business." http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_and_employment_law_/2007/11/unpaid-internsh.html http://laborlaw.typepad.com/labor_and_employment_law_/2007/1...
gojomo 18y ago
IANAL, but I believe a strict literal enforcement of minimum-wage laws also prohibits founders working for their own corporation without salary. (Equity doesn't count for minimum wage calculations.) Much of the bootstrapped-startup culture we celebrate may thus rely on lax enforcement of these laws.
- BobbyH 18y ago
  Good point, but only employees must be paid the minimum wage. If you founded the company, you are not an employee because you direct your work. The IRS says an employee is "anyone who performs services for an organization is an employee if the organization can control what will be done and how it will be done" (http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=131137,00.html http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=131137,00.html).