4 ms·

Or maybe we complain, to take the example of sexism, because there is a real problem. That needs to be addressed. And given that the first two items you addres

by groby_b 14y ago

Or maybe we complain, to take the example of sexism, because there is a real problem. That needs to be addressed. And given that the first two items you address are code of conduct & sexism, I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that". To be very clear, not because I think all white males are mean-spirited misogynists. Most of them are pretty nice people, in my experience. But because being part of the majority blinds people to minority issues. And so, while I agree it's important to keep a positive outlook on life, I suggest that especially for issues that don't affect you directly, you take a deep look if this is really just "negativity", or if there's a real issue lurking beyond that. And then let's fix them. In a positive way :)

rdegges 14y ago
Author here. I completely agree with you that those are real problems. I have a great wife (and sisters) who have experienced varying levels of sexism in the technical world as well, and it really bothers me. I didn't mean in my article that we should all be blind to the bad things going on, I just feel like people quickly jump to negative conclusions and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly. Constantly focusing on the negatives can be a real emotional drain. It's a lot easier to focus on the positives and solving problems. For instance, it's quite great that PyCon this year had over 20% female attendees! That's a big accomplishment compared to previous years' stats. In addition, the code of conduct and public outreach made a lot of people feel welcome and safe attending the event, which is a big win for everyone! When bad things happen, they must certainly be brought to light -- but discussion around these problems could be far more constructive if people were to focus their efforts and energy on resolving issues and working together rather than blaming one another and becoming defensive or close-minded. The first step to solving problems is always to identify the problem, but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers. Thank you for the comment, I'm really surprised to see so many interesting viewpoints about this topic.
- groby_b 14y ago
  > and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly Oh, I agree with you there. > but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers. That's an excellent insight, and one that's hard to keep in mind, at times. Especially if most attempts at fixing a problem are greeted by essentially a wave of bile and hate. It's easy to forget that most people are decent, when the Internet makes it easy to only see the loudest ones. That's where I'd say I disagree with you - it's not easy to focus on the positive. It depends on the reaction of your peers. Yes, we must be the change we wish to see in the world - but emulating Ghandi all the time is something only very few succeed at. Thank you for the reminder that it's worth trying, though.
cema 14y ago
I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that" That would be stereotyping. You would not want to stereotype, would you?
- groby_b 14y ago
  I've used this particular statement as a rhetorical device. But yes, yes I do. All the time. I try to catch myself doing it, and not let myself be influenced by it. Having biases/stereotyping is not the issue - we're predisposed to snap judgments. Recognizing it, and deciding how we act upon it is the issue. As such, I'm still OK with my statement. (Except that I'd re-edit to "majority often blinds people). I call out a condition that actually exists, and ask to take it into consideration - I don't accuse, or segregate, or treat the other party as lesser. And had I followed this up with "and so you can't possibly get it, and you're a $INSULT, and you're intentionally suppressing women", then yes, you should call me out on this and tell me that I'm wrong. (And that my manners need fixing) Being part of a minority does not excuse bad behavior.
  - obstacle1 14y ago
    >I don't accuse, or segregate, or treat the other party as lesser 1. Drawing the category is in itself an act of segregation. 2. Claiming to know each person in a class of people better than they know themselves is inherently treating them as lesser. It is the definition of claiming superiority. "Don't worry, silly white males, it's not your fault that you don't know The Truth, because you're silly white males! Here, let me tell you what's up!"
    - ibudiallo 14y ago
      This is a good example of focusing on the negativity. It could have been interpreted in so many different ways and I am sure your interpretation is not what the author meant. Before responding any further please re-read your message , then read it one more time.
      - 14y ago
altera 14y ago
Amazing, first paragraph defines sexism as problem, second paragraphs defines very gently male-whites as pigs (but not all of them of course). Reminds me a job ad I had seen recently. In first paragraph: "we support equal opportunities for minorities, if you are X,Y,Z or W please apply". Just under it was age limit 45 years. This was desk-based administrator position for major government agency.
dgesang 14y ago
> white male programmer > And then let's fix them. Ok, so stop with your sexists & racist stereotypes.
- RyanMcGreal 14y ago
  White male programmers do have a tendency to be tone deaf to discrimination. Not because they're white or male (that would be a sexist/racist stereotype), but because white-and-male is the dominant demographic in our society, and people who are part of the dominant demographic tend to be less aware and conscious of the comparative disadvantages faced by people who are not part of that demographic.

by groby_b 14y ago

rdegges 14y ago

Author here. I completely agree with you that those are real problems. I have a great wife (and sisters) who have experienced varying levels of sexism in the technical world as well, and it really bothers me. I didn't mean in my article that we should all be blind to the bad things going on, I just feel like people quickly jump to negative conclusions and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly. Constantly focusing on the negatives can be a real emotional drain. It's a lot easier to focus on the positives and solving problems. For instance, it's quite great that PyCon this year had over 20% female attendees! That's a big accomplishment compared to previous years' stats. In addition, the code of conduct and public outreach made a lot of people feel welcome and safe attending the event, which is a big win for everyone! When bad things happen, they must certainly be brought to light -- but discussion around these problems could be far more constructive if people were to focus their efforts and energy on resolving issues and working together rather than blaming one another and becoming defensive or close-minded. The first step to solving problems is always to identify the problem, but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers. Thank you for the comment, I'm really surprised to see so many interesting viewpoints about this topic.

groby_b 14y ago
> and go into pitchfork mode all too quickly Oh, I agree with you there. > but the attitude you take to solving problems can make a huge difference both to yourself and to your peers. That's an excellent insight, and one that's hard to keep in mind, at times. Especially if most attempts at fixing a problem are greeted by essentially a wave of bile and hate. It's easy to forget that most people are decent, when the Internet makes it easy to only see the loudest ones. That's where I'd say I disagree with you - it's not easy to focus on the positive. It depends on the reaction of your peers. Yes, we must be the change we wish to see in the world - but emulating Ghandi all the time is something only very few succeed at. Thank you for the reminder that it's worth trying, though.

cema 14y ago

I can't help but think "Of course a white male programmer wouldn't see an issue with that" That would be stereotyping. You would not want to stereotype, would you?

groby_b 14y ago
I've used this particular statement as a rhetorical device. But yes, yes I do. All the time. I try to catch myself doing it, and not let myself be influenced by it. Having biases/stereotyping is not the issue - we're predisposed to snap judgments. Recognizing it, and deciding how we act upon it is the issue. As such, I'm still OK with my statement. (Except that I'd re-edit to "majority often blinds people). I call out a condition that actually exists, and ask to take it into consideration - I don't accuse, or segregate, or treat the other party as lesser. And had I followed this up with "and so you can't possibly get it, and you're a $INSULT, and you're intentionally suppressing women", then yes, you should call me out on this and tell me that I'm wrong. (And that my manners need fixing) Being part of a minority does not excuse bad behavior.
- obstacle1 14y ago
  >I don't accuse, or segregate, or treat the other party as lesser 1. Drawing the category is in itself an act of segregation. 2. Claiming to know each person in a class of people better than they know themselves is inherently treating them as lesser. It is the definition of claiming superiority. "Don't worry, silly white males, it's not your fault that you don't know The Truth, because you're silly white males! Here, let me tell you what's up!"
  - ibudiallo 14y ago
    This is a good example of focusing on the negativity. It could have been interpreted in so many different ways and I am sure your interpretation is not what the author meant. Before responding any further please re-read your message , then read it one more time.
    - 14y ago

altera 14y ago

Amazing, first paragraph defines sexism as problem, second paragraphs defines very gently male-whites as pigs (but not all of them of course). Reminds me a job ad I had seen recently. In first paragraph: "we support equal opportunities for minorities, if you are X,Y,Z or W please apply". Just under it was age limit 45 years. This was desk-based administrator position for major government agency.

dgesang 14y ago

> white male programmer > And then let's fix them. Ok, so stop with your sexists & racist stereotypes.

RyanMcGreal 14y ago
White male programmers do have a tendency to be tone deaf to discrimination. Not because they're white or male (that would be a sexist/racist stereotype), but because white-and-male is the dominant demographic in our society, and people who are part of the dominant demographic tend to be less aware and conscious of the comparative disadvantages faced by people who are not part of that demographic.