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"What About The Men!" cries a man who takes insult at the idea of a space he isn't welcome. An exception to the rules of society! And his point about all-woma

by parfe 14y ago

"What About The Men!" cries a man who takes insult at the idea of a space he isn't welcome. An exception to the rules of society! And his point about all-woman hackathons is kinda refuted by his own banner image. A room full of men with three women. People don't like feeling exposed and isolated. Just maybe if events weren't a super-majority of young white males then minority groups wouldn't need to create a safe space for themselves to not feel like outsiders. To that the brave Male Rights Warrior says "Well people are just people! They should just get over it and fit in." Well they are getting over it, by hosting their own events where they feel comfortable. You just aren't explicitly invited.

alxjrvs 14y ago
Proud of HN for these responses (Specifically, the pro-feminist reaction to this nonsense). +1
mpyne 14y ago
I've mentioned this before I think, but even geeks take advantage of organizing peer groups that are aligned to their own minority status. I mean, forming up a group is practically Step 1 in "Surviving as a Minority". Most peer groups I've been in I have ended up as a minority in some sense (though not gender or race); it was by starting off in small groups (not necessarily of the same minority status, but supportive of such) that I was able to integrate into the larger whole. The real issue isn't that women in tech are forming up separate groups; it's that they have to so in order to feel welcomed and safe, and to have a central voice to advance equality and professionalism within the tech field. Those saying "just get over and fit in" don't get it; this is exactly how you start to fit in at all.
jack-r-abbit 14y ago
I think it is less about taking insult at the idea of a space he's not welcome and more about taking insult at hypocrisy that seems to be around the "It is bad when YOU do it. But not when we do it" type of stuff. The equality that is being sought is not really a true equality. That's my 2 cents.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  But that's not really true. If equality is achieved, there's no need for such "safe space" events and they'll likely disappear. But at the moment we are far from equality, so there is a need for it.
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    So until this all gets sorted out, you'd be fine if an all-male event was put on so men could feel safe from being publicly shamed by an overreaction to overheard comment? Everyone has an equal right to feel safe, right?
    - alxjrvs 14y ago
      Yes, they do. It's just that Men have no reason to feel unsafe, because they are in the majority, Indeed, the large majority of coding events, seminars, lectures, terminology, etc - are geared towards men. This is the same argument as someone loudly asking "Why isn't there a White Entertainment Television channel?" There is. It is every other channel on TV, where the default assumption of an audience member is a white (and typically male) human in their 30's. We have no reason to feel unsafe.
      - sp332 14y ago
        Men have no reason to feel unsafe... until they lose their jobs over a joke. Edit: OK I admit that was kind of unconstructive. My real point is: men get harassed by women and groups of women all the time. It might not be a problem at most tech events. Just don't pretend it never happens.
      - manicdee 14y ago
        "Men have no reason to feel unsafe, because they are in the majority" Prey animals don't share your optimism. They live lives of eternal vigilance. To a gazelle, the price of failure in vigilance is death. In a world where it is increasingly becoming more dangerous to step out of line. Racist, sexist or otherwise offensive jokes will cost you your job, regardless of how "safe" you thought the joke was: it only takes someone to interpret the joke as offensive and report it to an authority, and you end up out of a job. The person taking offense is the lion. The person unwittingly causing offense is the gazelle who let down their guard for five seconds. Men have every reason to feel unsafe: because they are in the majority (in certain environments) it is easier to assume that a particular joke will be acceptable to any gathering. The more people are in hearing range of that joke, the more likely it is that someone will regard it as offensive and take disciplinary action. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and continual self censorship.

by parfe 14y ago

alxjrvs 14y ago

Proud of HN for these responses (Specifically, the pro-feminist reaction to this nonsense). +1

mpyne 14y ago

I've mentioned this before I think, but even geeks take advantage of organizing peer groups that are aligned to their own minority status. I mean, forming up a group is practically Step 1 in "Surviving as a Minority". Most peer groups I've been in I have ended up as a minority in some sense (though not gender or race); it was by starting off in small groups (not necessarily of the same minority status, but supportive of such) that I was able to integrate into the larger whole. The real issue isn't that women in tech are forming up separate groups; it's that they have to so in order to feel welcomed and safe, and to have a central voice to advance equality and professionalism within the tech field. Those saying "just get over and fit in" don't get it; this is exactly how you start to fit in at all.

jack-r-abbit 14y ago

I think it is less about taking insult at the idea of a space he's not welcome and more about taking insult at hypocrisy that seems to be around the "It is bad when YOU do it. But not when we do it" type of stuff. The equality that is being sought is not really a true equality. That's my 2 cents.

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
But that's not really true. If equality is achieved, there's no need for such "safe space" events and they'll likely disappear. But at the moment we are far from equality, so there is a need for it.
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  So until this all gets sorted out, you'd be fine if an all-male event was put on so men could feel safe from being publicly shamed by an overreaction to overheard comment? Everyone has an equal right to feel safe, right?
  - alxjrvs 14y ago
    Yes, they do. It's just that Men have no reason to feel unsafe, because they are in the majority, Indeed, the large majority of coding events, seminars, lectures, terminology, etc - are geared towards men. This is the same argument as someone loudly asking "Why isn't there a White Entertainment Television channel?" There is. It is every other channel on TV, where the default assumption of an audience member is a white (and typically male) human in their 30's. We have no reason to feel unsafe.
    - sp332 14y ago
      Men have no reason to feel unsafe... until they lose their jobs over a joke. Edit: OK I admit that was kind of unconstructive. My real point is: men get harassed by women and groups of women all the time. It might not be a problem at most tech events. Just don't pretend it never happens.
    - manicdee 14y ago
      "Men have no reason to feel unsafe, because they are in the majority" Prey animals don't share your optimism. They live lives of eternal vigilance. To a gazelle, the price of failure in vigilance is death. In a world where it is increasingly becoming more dangerous to step out of line. Racist, sexist or otherwise offensive jokes will cost you your job, regardless of how "safe" you thought the joke was: it only takes someone to interpret the joke as offensive and report it to an authority, and you end up out of a job. The person taking offense is the lion. The person unwittingly causing offense is the gazelle who let down their guard for five seconds. Men have every reason to feel unsafe: because they are in the majority (in certain environments) it is easier to assume that a particular joke will be acceptable to any gathering. The more people are in hearing range of that joke, the more likely it is that someone will regard it as offensive and take disciplinary action. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance and continual self censorship.