4 ms·

Problem is, if I'm good at negotiation they can negotiate me down by saying "we can hire someone who is worse at negotiation than you".

by jiggy2011 14y ago

dpritchett 14y ago
That sounds like a reasonable variant of "you are overqualified for our opening".
michaelochurch 14y ago
Problem is, if I'm good at negotiation they can negotiate me down by saying "we can hire someone who is worse at negotiation than you". If you are good at negotiation, you'll get past that. Negotiation isn't just about the meeting and the table. Everything you do for years before even meeting each other is part of it.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Well , to a point. As long as there isn't another developer with >= development skills and worse negotiation.
  - dpritchett 14y ago
    You're still allowing the other party to frame the transaction. Sell a vision of a positive outcome: by retaining you they'll work with someone cool and they'll get lots of money and respect out of the association. Don't sell a close match on resume filters. It's possible that you won't be able to make the case, and that's okay. They can keep looking for someone willing to take their opening offer.
    - RougeFemme 14y ago
      The key point is selling. Unfortunately, many of us are very poor salespeople and are especially poor at selling ourselves.
      - munchbunny 14y ago
        Like coding, selling is also a skill that can be learned through practice.
        tome 14y ago
        Agreed. Read Negotiation Genius* and go from there. (*or any other recommended book)
        pacaro 14y ago
        This presents an interesting challenge. I'm currently engaged in negotiating a job offer, but the last time I did this was nearly 16 years ago, the rest of my sales experience is from craigslist... There is also a difference, in a commerce transaction the best outcome is when both parties think that they got a good deal, how the parties feel about each other only matters in as much as it will impact future potential transactions (i.e. if the buyer thinks that the seller is a sucker and charged too little then as long as the seller is happy with the price the only consequence is likely in the future if the buyer tries to take advantage of the seller) In a transaction that aims to start a long term relationship (i.e. employment!) ideally neither side should carry negative sentiment from the negotiation. Likely you are negotiating with an HR dept or recruiter who won't take it personally, that makes it easier for the applicant to be a little "harder", the reverse doesn't apply, if the company plays hard-ball it can leave a lingering sense of resentment in a new employee (who should otherwise be entering a honeymoon period) The last time I changed companies I took a small pay cut (bottom line, headline pay was slightly more, but benefits were noticeably worse) - it grated for a long time, even though the eventual outcome was good (acquihire)
        pm90 14y ago
        This is a very hard problem. For me it boiled down to this: I really wanted to work at a particular company. Even though what they offered was (slightly) below my expectations, I accepted it. I didn't want to haggle because I knew this was one of the few places I would be happy working and was afraid of losing that opportunity.

Problem is, if I'm good at negotiation they can negotiate me down by saying "we can hire someone who is worse at negotiation than you".

dpritchett 14y ago

That sounds like a reasonable variant of "you are overqualified for our opening".

michaelochurch 14y ago

Problem is, if I'm good at negotiation they can negotiate me down by saying "we can hire someone who is worse at negotiation than you". If you are good at negotiation, you'll get past that. Negotiation isn't just about the meeting and the table. Everything you do for years before even meeting each other is part of it.

jiggy2011 14y ago
Well , to a point. As long as there isn't another developer with >= development skills and worse negotiation.
- dpritchett 14y ago
  You're still allowing the other party to frame the transaction. Sell a vision of a positive outcome: by retaining you they'll work with someone cool and they'll get lots of money and respect out of the association. Don't sell a close match on resume filters. It's possible that you won't be able to make the case, and that's okay. They can keep looking for someone willing to take their opening offer.
  - RougeFemme 14y ago
    The key point is selling. Unfortunately, many of us are very poor salespeople and are especially poor at selling ourselves.
    - munchbunny 14y ago
      Like coding, selling is also a skill that can be learned through practice.
      - tome 14y ago
        Agreed. Read Negotiation Genius* and go from there. (*or any other recommended book)
      - pacaro 14y ago
        This presents an interesting challenge. I'm currently engaged in negotiating a job offer, but the last time I did this was nearly 16 years ago, the rest of my sales experience is from craigslist... There is also a difference, in a commerce transaction the best outcome is when both parties think that they got a good deal, how the parties feel about each other only matters in as much as it will impact future potential transactions (i.e. if the buyer thinks that the seller is a sucker and charged too little then as long as the seller is happy with the price the only consequence is likely in the future if the buyer tries to take advantage of the seller) In a transaction that aims to start a long term relationship (i.e. employment!) ideally neither side should carry negative sentiment from the negotiation. Likely you are negotiating with an HR dept or recruiter who won't take it personally, that makes it easier for the applicant to be a little "harder", the reverse doesn't apply, if the company plays hard-ball it can leave a lingering sense of resentment in a new employee (who should otherwise be entering a honeymoon period) The last time I changed companies I took a small pay cut (bottom line, headline pay was slightly more, but benefits were noticeably worse) - it grated for a long time, even though the eventual outcome was good (acquihire)
        pm90 14y ago
        This is a very hard problem. For me it boiled down to this: I really wanted to work at a particular company. Even though what they offered was (slightly) below my expectations, I accepted it. I didn't want to haggle because I knew this was one of the few places I would be happy working and was afraid of losing that opportunity.