5 ms·

When the story is told of our history, people will be amazed that such a great nation was dismantled with barely a notice. And no one will recall the exact hou

When the story is told of our history, people will be amazed that such a great nation was dismantled with barely a notice. And no one will recall the exact hour: a little freedom here...a few rights there...another bit of privacy given over to our government...

milkshakes 14y ago
I'd say 9/11 is as likely a candidate as any for "the exact hour"
- RexRollman 14y ago
  Fear is a hell of a thing.
  - unclebucknasty 14y ago
    No doubt. But hey, at least we're safe now.
- unclebucknasty 14y ago
  Definitely the catalyst that started it all.
pekk 14y ago
It isn't better if that power is given over to you and your buddies who are not democratically elected. It is worse.
- unclebucknasty 14y ago
  I'll take option C.) None of the above.
mayneack 14y ago
Barely a notice? I'd say this is noticed quite a bit compared to other world powers being dismantled. Every random civil libertarian with a blog will be able to point to their blog and say "I saw this coming." Sure, many people probably noticed all sorts of other things, but they didn't all tweet about their daily lives for everyone to see and record.
- unclebucknasty 14y ago
  But I don't think the "masses" have noticed or that it has become a social/political issue of nearly the magnitude that it's importance would suggest. In fact, many who are aware of the changes even defend them as being necessary. They still don't notice the overall direction or net effect. Some of the comments on this thread alone speak to that.
anigbrowl 14y ago
Oh spare us the hyperbole, the US has always had and wielded with gusto a robust customs power. Eligible bank transactions are already fully accessible to the FBI and letting other agencies run their own pattern-matching algorithms on a sea of dat isn't going to reduce your freedom one whit. If you want to criticize this, get specific about which provisions you find objectionable and where you feel the limits should be and why, instead of striking these insubstantive prophetic poses. As Mark Twain said, 'The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated.'
- tshile 14y ago
  I think the objectionable part is where government agencies, with no oversight (they just claim it's to protect 'national security' when congress asks), are given full access to the financial records of every citizen. Just a guess though. The FBI having previous access is not a justification for giving it to every agency. Finally, having a problem with this doesn't mean you don't have a problem with the FBI having access. You may be late to the game but some of us have been complaining about this since the first version of the Patriot Act. Just because you decided to jump in now doesn't mean the criticism of these moves is new or somehow leaving out the previous expansion of government access to previously considered private data.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    I was calling up the EFF for advice on anti-bulletin board legislation in in the UK in 1991, the concept of government overreach is not new to me. I am not endorsing mass data collection without any legal safeguards (although there are some strong legal arguments to consider non-cash financial transactions as matters of semi-public record); I think your criticisms here are entirely valid even though my opinion differs somewhat from yours. What I'm objecting is the substitution of rhetoric for reasoned argument, with these post-facto pronouncements of the nation's death and suchlike. If I want emotional appeals that seek to exploit confirmation bias I can just turn on talk radio or listen to commercials for gold and rifle ammo.
    - tshile 14y ago
Ovid 14y ago
So, in my spare time I help people become expats. The (precious few) studies of US expats show that most of them have moved to other countries for someone they love, followed by work or adventure (search for von Koppenfels' study). Very few of us expats have left for political reasons. However, when I talk to people today who want to leave, while adventure and love are still cited, it's the political crap in the US which is driving a lot of it. People are telling me that "the US isn't the country they grew up in." They're saying they can't fight the Koch Brothers, the Waltons, Big{Oil,Pharma,Banking}, Citizens United and so on. I think it's not coincidental that the rate of 18 to 24-year-olds who are interested in moving abroad has skyrocketed from 12% in 2007 to 40% in 2011 (http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/05/somewhatseriously-interested-in-relocating-by-age-group-and-year/ http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/05/somewhatseriously-inte...) but the number of them planning to relocate has collapsed (http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/06/yes-plan-to-relocate-by-age-group-and-year/ http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/06/yes-plan-to-relocate-b...). I think the reason is simple: young people are tired of the constant bad news but they don't have any money to move abroad. Interestingly, when they talk to me about this, they're usually not looking for greener pastures: they aren't assuming the world is better somewhere else or that they can escape what's going on. Maybe that puts 'em back in the adventure category instead of moving for political reasons? (That being said, the demographics between actual expats and would-be expats could be radically different). Note for the curious: I moved abroad for adventure, not political reasons. Five countries and counting. TL;DR: Young people in the US are waking up from all of the bad news and wondering what it would be like to live somewhere else, but they think they don't have the money to leave the US.
- grecy 14y ago
  reddit.com/r/igotout
- RougeFemme 14y ago
  I would think the a big reason that 18 to 24-year olds are willing to consider moving abroad is the lousy job market since 2007 - due to a variety of reasons, not the least of which was the financial "crisis".
- ajtaylor 14y ago

milkshakes 14y ago

I'd say 9/11 is as likely a candidate as any for "the exact hour"

RexRollman 14y ago
Fear is a hell of a thing.
- unclebucknasty 14y ago
  No doubt. But hey, at least we're safe now.
unclebucknasty 14y ago
Definitely the catalyst that started it all.

pekk 14y ago

It isn't better if that power is given over to you and your buddies who are not democratically elected. It is worse.

unclebucknasty 14y ago
I'll take option C.) None of the above.

mayneack 14y ago

Barely a notice? I'd say this is noticed quite a bit compared to other world powers being dismantled. Every random civil libertarian with a blog will be able to point to their blog and say "I saw this coming." Sure, many people probably noticed all sorts of other things, but they didn't all tweet about their daily lives for everyone to see and record.

unclebucknasty 14y ago
But I don't think the "masses" have noticed or that it has become a social/political issue of nearly the magnitude that it's importance would suggest. In fact, many who are aware of the changes even defend them as being necessary. They still don't notice the overall direction or net effect. Some of the comments on this thread alone speak to that.

anigbrowl 14y ago

Oh spare us the hyperbole, the US has always had and wielded with gusto a robust customs power. Eligible bank transactions are already fully accessible to the FBI and letting other agencies run their own pattern-matching algorithms on a sea of dat isn't going to reduce your freedom one whit. If you want to criticize this, get specific about which provisions you find objectionable and where you feel the limits should be and why, instead of striking these insubstantive prophetic poses. As Mark Twain said, 'The rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated.'

tshile 14y ago
I think the objectionable part is where government agencies, with no oversight (they just claim it's to protect 'national security' when congress asks), are given full access to the financial records of every citizen. Just a guess though. The FBI having previous access is not a justification for giving it to every agency. Finally, having a problem with this doesn't mean you don't have a problem with the FBI having access. You may be late to the game but some of us have been complaining about this since the first version of the Patriot Act. Just because you decided to jump in now doesn't mean the criticism of these moves is new or somehow leaving out the previous expansion of government access to previously considered private data.
- anigbrowl 14y ago
  I was calling up the EFF for advice on anti-bulletin board legislation in in the UK in 1991, the concept of government overreach is not new to me. I am not endorsing mass data collection without any legal safeguards (although there are some strong legal arguments to consider non-cash financial transactions as matters of semi-public record); I think your criticisms here are entirely valid even though my opinion differs somewhat from yours. What I'm objecting is the substitution of rhetoric for reasoned argument, with these post-facto pronouncements of the nation's death and suchlike. If I want emotional appeals that seek to exploit confirmation bias I can just turn on talk radio or listen to commercials for gold and rifle ammo.
  - tshile 14y ago

Ovid 14y ago

So, in my spare time I help people become expats. The (precious few) studies of US expats show that most of them have moved to other countries for someone they love, followed by work or adventure (search for von Koppenfels' study). Very few of us expats have left for political reasons. However, when I talk to people today who want to leave, while adventure and love are still cited, it's the political crap in the US which is driving a lot of it. People are telling me that "the US isn't the country they grew up in." They're saying they can't fight the Koch Brothers, the Waltons, Big{Oil,Pharma,Banking}, Citizens United and so on. I think it's not coincidental that the rate of 18 to 24-year-olds who are interested in moving abroad has skyrocketed from 12% in 2007 to 40% in 2011 (http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/05/somewhatseriously-interested-in-relocating-by-age-group-and-year/ http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/05/somewhatseriously-inte...) but the number of them planning to relocate has collapsed (http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/06/yes-plan-to-relocate-by-age-group-and-year/ http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/06/yes-plan-to-relocate-b...). I think the reason is simple: young people are tired of the constant bad news but they don't have any money to move abroad. Interestingly, when they talk to me about this, they're usually not looking for greener pastures: they aren't assuming the world is better somewhere else or that they can escape what's going on. Maybe that puts 'em back in the adventure category instead of moving for political reasons? (That being said, the demographics between actual expats and would-be expats could be radically different). Note for the curious: I moved abroad for adventure, not political reasons. Five countries and counting. TL;DR: Young people in the US are waking up from all of the bad news and wondering what it would be like to live somewhere else, but they think they don't have the money to leave the US.

grecy 14y ago
reddit.com/r/igotout
RougeFemme 14y ago
I would think the a big reason that 18 to 24-year olds are willing to consider moving abroad is the lousy job market since 2007 - due to a variety of reasons, not the least of which was the financial "crisis".
ajtaylor 14y ago