3 ms·

Isn't LLVM a more interesting universal machine to target anyway?

by noss 18y ago

gps408 18y ago
Isn't part of the reason for targeting the JVM the ton of libraries you get for free?
- ori_b 18y ago
  How many of them fit idiomatically into the language you choose to use on the JVM?
  - jwinter 18y ago
    Clojure does a good job of introducing new idioms specifically for Java support. From their docs: (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put "a" 1) (.put "b" 2)) (.. System (getProperties) (get "os.name"))
    - mahmud 18y ago
      iteration and getting system setting stuff are so generic you might as well implement it yourself or write a thin wrapper (in this case iterating over entries in a hash table and getting the OS name) IMO, a good chunk of the java libraries are there to overcome java deficiencies, and don't produce anything grand on their own for other languages.
    - ori_b 18y ago
      So, in other words, it doesn't fit into preexisting languages idiomatically. You want to introduce new idioms into Closure to make it integrate better with the JVM. That's fine, but it also means that if you want to do a direct port of, say, Ruby or Python or Erlang, you'll have several rather large warts compared to new languages designed to run on the JVM and use the Java class libraries.
nraynaud 18y ago
I'm looking at LLVM at the moment, and I can say that it is far from a JVM/.net . I wonder if I can invest on it because they will close the gap, or if they are just playing catchup with gcc, in which case there is no future for GC languages.
akeefer 18y ago
I don't know too much about LLVM, but the JVM has a ton of advantages: it's pretty much universally available on all platforms, it uses a fairly trivial set of instructions that make learning the instruction set and using it fairly easy, there's a ton of information out there about it covering everything from GC algorithms to VM flags to bytecode instructions and memory models, and both the Sun and IBM versions have been heavily optimized over the years. It might not be the best fit for every language, but it's a pretty impressive platform to build a language on.

Isn't LLVM a more interesting universal machine to target anyway?

by noss 18y ago

Isn't LLVM a more interesting universal machine to target anyway?

gps408 18y ago

Isn't part of the reason for targeting the JVM the ton of libraries you get for free?

ori_b 18y ago
How many of them fit idiomatically into the language you choose to use on the JVM?
- jwinter 18y ago
  Clojure does a good job of introducing new idioms specifically for Java support. From their docs: (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put "a" 1) (.put "b" 2)) (.. System (getProperties) (get "os.name"))
  - mahmud 18y ago
    iteration and getting system setting stuff are so generic you might as well implement it yourself or write a thin wrapper (in this case iterating over entries in a hash table and getting the OS name) IMO, a good chunk of the java libraries are there to overcome java deficiencies, and don't produce anything grand on their own for other languages.
  - ori_b 18y ago
    So, in other words, it doesn't fit into preexisting languages idiomatically. You want to introduce new idioms into Closure to make it integrate better with the JVM. That's fine, but it also means that if you want to do a direct port of, say, Ruby or Python or Erlang, you'll have several rather large warts compared to new languages designed to run on the JVM and use the Java class libraries.

nraynaud 18y ago

I'm looking at LLVM at the moment, and I can say that it is far from a JVM/.net . I wonder if I can invest on it because they will close the gap, or if they are just playing catchup with gcc, in which case there is no future for GC languages.

akeefer 18y ago

I don't know too much about LLVM, but the JVM has a ton of advantages: it's pretty much universally available on all platforms, it uses a fairly trivial set of instructions that make learning the instruction set and using it fairly easy, there's a ton of information out there about it covering everything from GC algorithms to VM flags to bytecode instructions and memory models, and both the Sun and IBM versions have been heavily optimized over the years. It might not be the best fit for every language, but it's a pretty impressive platform to build a language on.