4 ms·

Another article about the tech-industry entitlement culture. [edit] It's quite fascinating that I get heavily down-voted every time I mention the entitlement-c

by adnam 14y ago

Another article about the tech-industry entitlement culture. [edit] It's quite fascinating that I get heavily down-voted every time I mention the entitlement-culture phenomenon. It really makes me cringe to read things like this, when less fortunate (but equally skillful) professionals have a hard time just getting an interview. The pendulum will swing back sooner or later, and we'll look back on this as the golden era of being a Software Engineer.

nikomen 14y ago
It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has to do with the fact that there's apparently a shortage of developers in the world which means that one can be more "picky" about what they expect from an employer. Also, I want a job where my responsibility is to get work done, not be required to follow unnecessary policies or accomplish things that have nothing to do with the task at hand. A lot of companies implement policies "just because" even if they hinder getting actual work done.
- adnam 14y ago
  I think it's the same thing, isn't it? My wife is an Architect -- a real Architect, not a BillG wannabe -- and is gobsmacked at the arrogance of people in the tech industry towards hiring. "I'm not here to be interviewed, I'm going to interview you" "These tremendous company benefits totally suck" "It is my divine right to work from home" "Co-workers are to be seen and not heard" etc etc
  - nawitus 14y ago
    So it's okay for a corporation to be entitled but not individual people? Says quite a lot about you.
    - adnam 14y ago
      "Let me cram these words in your mouth, and point out how much that says about you". Erm..? I can't reply so [edit], now you're going to tell me "that's how language works"? I stopped reading right there.
      - nawitus 14y ago
        My point was presented as a question, you have the right to clarify your thoughts if you disagree. People make interpretations out of what other people have said. That's how language works, actually. It just seems that you say it's wrong for the employees to have the edge, but not for the employer to have it. In another industry there's a lot more job seekers than available positions (e.g. the supply of jobs is lower than the demand). In those industries the company has the edge, it's entitled to hold all power in an interview situation, and can filter applications that try to make certain demands. In the tech industry, there's big demand for experienced developers. Software engineers can choose a job from several good options. Therefore the applicants are entitled to make certain demands, like asking questions from the employer. Besides, many employers except this, and say in the beginning of the interview that it's a "two-way interview". Your comment made it seem that it's okay for only one side to be entitled, that is the company instead of the individual.
  - nathan_long 14y ago
    I do think it's important to be grateful and humble. However, you could similarly mock most decisions we make in the marketplace. If you live in the first world and you are shopping for houses or apartments, you might decide against one because of the decor. That would seem ridiculously privileged from the perspective of someone who lives in a mud hut. But the fact is that you have options, and you have to choose somehow. A developer with 10 good job choices has to choose somehow. Whatever differentiates those jobs will be a small matter. But it will be a difference. If the market for developers tanks, we'll lower our standards.
eddieroger 14y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your issue with entitlement is in the presentation and phrasing of the questions, and not having them at all, correct? I have never been to an interview where I wasn't asked if I had questions for them, and with the exception of the last one (which I believe is gleaned from the interview itself), these all seem reasonable when phrased in a mild, non-aggressive way.
- adnam 14y ago
  I think it's more the case that this sort of blog-post always rises to the top of HN. It's a topic that always comes up when developers get together. It goes together with a lot of other non-complaints: "I constantly get contacted by recruiters, ain't it awful?" / "these enormous benefits are substandard" / "they expect me work in an office with other human beings" I don't necessarily think that it's WRONG to capitalize on the situation. Everyone is entitled to the best they can get in the job market. But programmers love to go on and on about their first-world problems and it's frankly embarrassing.
  - era86 14y ago
    There is nothing wrong with wanting to be happy at your workplace. It is, after all, where we spend a huge chunk of our time. You could ask these types of questions for many other jobs in many other industries and I feel like they wouldn't be seen as "first-world problems". I guess I can see where you're coming from. Since demand is high for experienced developers, we have a little more leverage when it comes to negotiating in the job market. I don't think it's entitlement, it's how supply and demand works.
lallysingh 14y ago
Well, remember the audience. The hackers here don't really /need/ anything that a company provides (outside, maybe benefits): they can get the same equipment and infrastructure for very little. This is also a start-up site. I think there's a (justified) bias here of looking at employment as an option against founding. Also, look at the financials of the situation. A software company can (easily) make $1 million/year/engineer, yet the engineer won't see more than a small fraction of that. The other parts of the business: marketing, sales, support, are primary topics on HN. On this site, a job is just a lower-risk alternative to doing a startup. For all the potential benefits of founding a successful startup, and even the small reputation bonus from founding a failing one, there's a lot that an employer has to offer to compensate.

by adnam 14y ago

nikomen 14y ago

It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has to do with the fact that there's apparently a shortage of developers in the world which means that one can be more "picky" about what they expect from an employer. Also, I want a job where my responsibility is to get work done, not be required to follow unnecessary policies or accomplish things that have nothing to do with the task at hand. A lot of companies implement policies "just because" even if they hinder getting actual work done.

adnam 14y ago
I think it's the same thing, isn't it? My wife is an Architect -- a real Architect, not a BillG wannabe -- and is gobsmacked at the arrogance of people in the tech industry towards hiring. "I'm not here to be interviewed, I'm going to interview you" "These tremendous company benefits totally suck" "It is my divine right to work from home" "Co-workers are to be seen and not heard" etc etc
- nawitus 14y ago
  So it's okay for a corporation to be entitled but not individual people? Says quite a lot about you.
  - adnam 14y ago
    "Let me cram these words in your mouth, and point out how much that says about you". Erm..? I can't reply so [edit], now you're going to tell me "that's how language works"? I stopped reading right there.
    - nawitus 14y ago
      My point was presented as a question, you have the right to clarify your thoughts if you disagree. People make interpretations out of what other people have said. That's how language works, actually. It just seems that you say it's wrong for the employees to have the edge, but not for the employer to have it. In another industry there's a lot more job seekers than available positions (e.g. the supply of jobs is lower than the demand). In those industries the company has the edge, it's entitled to hold all power in an interview situation, and can filter applications that try to make certain demands. In the tech industry, there's big demand for experienced developers. Software engineers can choose a job from several good options. Therefore the applicants are entitled to make certain demands, like asking questions from the employer. Besides, many employers except this, and say in the beginning of the interview that it's a "two-way interview". Your comment made it seem that it's okay for only one side to be entitled, that is the company instead of the individual.
- nathan_long 14y ago
  I do think it's important to be grateful and humble. However, you could similarly mock most decisions we make in the marketplace. If you live in the first world and you are shopping for houses or apartments, you might decide against one because of the decor. That would seem ridiculously privileged from the perspective of someone who lives in a mud hut. But the fact is that you have options, and you have to choose somehow. A developer with 10 good job choices has to choose somehow. Whatever differentiates those jobs will be a small matter. But it will be a difference. If the market for developers tanks, we'll lower our standards.

eddieroger 14y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your issue with entitlement is in the presentation and phrasing of the questions, and not having them at all, correct? I have never been to an interview where I wasn't asked if I had questions for them, and with the exception of the last one (which I believe is gleaned from the interview itself), these all seem reasonable when phrased in a mild, non-aggressive way.

adnam 14y ago
I think it's more the case that this sort of blog-post always rises to the top of HN. It's a topic that always comes up when developers get together. It goes together with a lot of other non-complaints: "I constantly get contacted by recruiters, ain't it awful?" / "these enormous benefits are substandard" / "they expect me work in an office with other human beings" I don't necessarily think that it's WRONG to capitalize on the situation. Everyone is entitled to the best they can get in the job market. But programmers love to go on and on about their first-world problems and it's frankly embarrassing.
- era86 14y ago
  There is nothing wrong with wanting to be happy at your workplace. It is, after all, where we spend a huge chunk of our time. You could ask these types of questions for many other jobs in many other industries and I feel like they wouldn't be seen as "first-world problems". I guess I can see where you're coming from. Since demand is high for experienced developers, we have a little more leverage when it comes to negotiating in the job market. I don't think it's entitlement, it's how supply and demand works.

lallysingh 14y ago

Well, remember the audience. The hackers here don't really /need/ anything that a company provides (outside, maybe benefits): they can get the same equipment and infrastructure for very little. This is also a start-up site. I think there's a (justified) bias here of looking at employment as an option against founding. Also, look at the financials of the situation. A software company can (easily) make $1 million/year/engineer, yet the engineer won't see more than a small fraction of that. The other parts of the business: marketing, sales, support, are primary topics on HN. On this site, a job is just a lower-risk alternative to doing a startup. For all the potential benefits of founding a successful startup, and even the small reputation bonus from founding a failing one, there's a lot that an employer has to offer to compensate.